Episode 320 || Faith Books, Part Deux

This week Annie is joined by friend and bookstagrammer (@shelfbyshelf) Hunter McLendon to discuss faith books.

The books mentioned on today’s episode are available at The Bookshelf:

From the Front Porch is a weekly podcast production of The Bookshelf, an independent bookstore in South Georgia. You can follow The Bookshelf’s daily happenings on Instagram at @bookshelftville, and all the books from today’s episode can be purchased online through our store website, www.bookshelfthomasville.com. 

A full transcript of today’s episode can be found below.

Special thanks to Dylan and his team at Studio D Production for sound and editing and for our theme music, which sets the perfect warm and friendly tone for our Thursday conversations. 

This week, Annie is reading Great Circle by Maggie Shipstead and Hunter is reading Crying in H Mart by Michelle Zauner.

If you liked what you heard on today’s episode, tell us by leaving a review on iTunes. Or, if you’re so inclined, support us on Patreon, where you can hear our staff’s weekly New Release Tuesday conversations, read full book reviews in our monthly Shelf Life newsletter, follow along as Hunter and I conquer a classic, and receive free media mail shipping on all your online book orders. Just go to patreon.com/fromthefrontporch.

We’re so grateful for you, and we look forward to meeting back here next week.

episode transcript

Annie: Welcome to From the Front Porch, a conversational podcast about books, small business, and life in the South.

“Faith is for that which lies on the other side of reason. Faith is what makes life bearable, with all its tragedies and ambiguities and sudden, startling joys.” 

- Madeleine L’Engle, Walking on Water 

I’m Annie Jones, owner of The Bookshelf, an independent bookstore in beautiful downtown Thomasville, Georgia, and today, I’m joined by my friend and fellow reader Hunter McLendon. Today, inspired in part by the works of Marilynne Robinson, we’re talking about faith books, and -- you can’t see my air quotes -- but what that phrase even means and the feelings it elicits. 

This is a conversation I’m continually having with the people in my life, and you can hear another take on faith books in episode 244  but today we're revisiting the topic. Hey, Hunter. 

Hunter McLendon: [00:01:18] Hello.

Annie: [00:01:20] So excited to talk about this.

Hunter McLendon: [00:01:22] I am too. I also just had to very quickly say he we're so good at this and I'm just always amazed every time. I just had to say that because I just, I don't know.

Annie: [00:01:30] Thank you. It's a little intimidating. We can see each other, like we're not in person, but there's a video aspect to this now and I specifically can not look at my face because I feel like I do the hand talk thing and very enthusiastic facial expressions. So thank you for bearing with me.

Okay. So let's talk a little bit about, I mean, we're inspired by Marilynne Robinson, particularly because her Gilead quartet has been chosen as an Oprah book club selection, [00:02:00] I think last month and so you and I have been kind of revisiting these books so I want to talk about that. 

But while you were reading, you texted me and you were like, Hey, can we talk about this? And so I want to know what prompted that text and kind of where you see and hope this conversation goes.

Hunter McLendon: [00:02:16] Well you know, I think that, um, you and I do talk about this a lot because we both kind of come from I think, I mean, I think we can say both came from small towns that like, you know, faith is like a major aspect of like life just in general like it's very like integrated into this like small town culture in a way, or at least the places that we inhabit. And we're also, we're reading Middlemarch right now, too, which, um, has a lot of these kinds of elements of faith that feels like, and so I don't know in a way, I guess that like, I've always wanted, I've always wanted to like, have these deeper conversations and I do think we have these deeper conversations, but I guess I want it to be able to have it with, with other people to be able to like chime in later and to like, have their own just like, I don't know, just a, a [00:03:00] greater conversation with everyone and, and us, I guess.

Annie: [00:03:03] Yeah. Because like you said, you and I are having this conversation fairly frequently and you and I, I mean, I do think we come from pretty different backgrounds and yet we do share the same faith worldview so we're approaching this from a Christian perspective. That's the, uh, that's the perspective we both were raised in more or less. There are obviously different aspects of the Christian faith that maybe you learn versus what I learned or whatever, but we're coming at it from the same place but I think you and I also like books that are outside of our faith worldview and our faith lens.

 And yet we still are drawn to. These conversations, these books about belief and doubt and I like having these conversations with you because we definitely approach things from maybe a similar starting point, but we also have different perspectives and one of the things I love about literature and I love about this podcast and conversations we have at the bookshelf [00:04:00] is that books have the power to make these conversations. I think a little bit easier because they're not always easy conversations to have. 

Um, but I would rather have them, like I would rather, I would rather talk about them even if they're slightly uncomfortable and, and I, when I talk with you, I never feel uncomfortable because I feel like, um, I hope that we are a safe space for one another and I hope that this podcast is a safe space for people to listen and chime into. So I like the fact that this is going to be kind of interactive for the listener as well.

Hunter McLendon: [00:04:30] Absolutely. And, you know, also, I, I, something I think is really interesting when it comes to specifically Christian fiction is that Christian fiction and Christian movies, and a lot of, you know, and this is not to down the genres, but, but a lot of them don't really, it is made, it's made for a very specific audience. There's an, and it's really just kind of like catering to that and that's fine, but books, like, like people like Marilynne Robinson are [00:05:00] writing for everyone and they're, you know, and they're writing to, to explore the humans. 

Like, I mean, like, you know, Gilliad and Home and Lila and Jack, these are books that are really like, it's, it's about people who are people of faith, but, and that is a major aspect of it but it's not it's, but I don't even consider them entirely Christian stories. I really do feel like they are just about people and, and their relationship with God is a major aspect of it.

Annie: [00:05:28] I think so much of this, and I'm having flashbacks to like a college class. I took at my Christian college and this argument I got into with a teacher, and maybe I've talked about this on the podcast before, I don't know, maybe I've shared it with you. But I was a journalism major and my journalism instructor, one of my main instructors had come, she was an adjunct professor, so she had come from Northwestern of all places to Faulkner university, which what a miracle in and of itself.

But she was, she and I were arguing about Christian as an adjective [00:06:00] and at the time I was a stubborn, you know, 20 year old, probably a little bit pious, probably a little bit holier than thou, probably a little bit like Dorothea from Middlemarch and I was insisting that I wanted to be a Christian journalist. And she was kindly pushing back and she, by the way, was right.

She was pushing back that I wanted to be a journalist who was a Christian and what she meant by that was the Christian adjective and Madeline Lingle talks about this a lot in Walking on Water, again, specific to the Christian faith but I think you could apply it to others, that when you turn Christian into an adjective, the art is not always good.

And what is a Christian work of art versus a work of art that, um, for me and for the Christian faith, uh, that elicits or evokes the incarnation, or that brings about light and hope and redemption, the themes that I see in my faith. And so I know [00:07:00] now that my professor was absolutely correct, and I was just like a stubborn holier than thou, christian kid. But I see this play out in, in the art that I consume a lot and I no shade right to the Christian fiction that I definitely grew up consuming. Like I definitely grew up reading and some perhaps evangelical listeners might remember reading like Liz Curtis Higgs, or like I could name all theirs or Amish fiction for whatever reason, very popular, popular in the Christian fiction world.

Um, so I grew up reading those things, I think partly because I still am a slightly prudish reader and I was guaranteed right as a teenager and my mom was guaranteed that those books were going to be air quote clean, but then I revisited Gilead last week and I first read, I, Oh gosh, I love that. I passed Annie had the wherewithal to like write down what year she finished and how she felt.

Um, so I'd written in front of the book that I finished Gilead [00:08:00] for the first time in 2009. I have talked about this memory, many times. I have a distinct memory of being in a hotel with Jordan, must have been March because basketball was on the TV and I absolutely sobbed and we had not been married for very long and Jordan and I do not cry very often. I cry more now than I used to and Jordan was like, he was desperately checking on me. Like, are you okay? Did somebody die? Like what happened? And of course somebody did die. John Ames died and I was devastated and Gilead deeply moved me. 

And then I re-read it last week and I just was immediately filled with, this is what faithful art looks like to me, meaning this is brilliantly written. This is about people trying their best, not perfect people, but people trying their best. This is about, and I hesitate to use this word because I think there's some negative connotations now, but this is about [00:09:00] virtue and this is about, this is about a family, and this is about friendships that encompass so much of what I want my life to look like and so much of what, gosh, I want my writing to look like, or I want my reading life to look like.

 When I talk about art that evokes in my case, a Christ like. Oh embodiment, this is what I am talking about. Other people, I don't think you have to be a Christian to read these books and I think you're right. I don't think they are explicitly or necessarily Christian. I think I could hand sell this to anybody, but the things, these characters are dealing with, the themes they are dealing with, these are the themes of my life, and these are the themes I want to talk to people about and these are the themes I want to be consumed with and it is so much better than a hallmark movie. 

Hunter McLendon: [00:09:53] Much better. It's true. Well, and I don't, I don't know. Did you, did you read Home?

Annie: [00:09:58] So I read Home [00:10:00] immediately. Like I w I looked back and I was pleasantly surprised. I was like, Oh, I did read home in 2010 and then I've started it. I'm about a third of the way through, I think I'm going to finish the whole quartet this year. I have never read Lila or Jack. 

Hunter McLendon: [00:10:12] Okay. So I'm like, I'm currently halfway through Jack now. It's very good. I loved Lila as well and something that I also really appreciate by the way, is that all four of these books are very different, which the fact that they're literally telling kind of, I mean, it's, it's, it's, even though it's like, it's, uh, it's in the same timeframe, I guess sort of, but it's still telling very different stories and something I really love about Home is that it almost reminded me in some ways of Go Set a Watchman just in how, right you don't you get that? 

Annie: [00:10:45] I'm nod, I'm shaking my head. Definitely. Yes. Yes. Because, so I, and maybe we should tell people these books, this Gilead quartet, um, is about this preacher, this minister named John Ames and it's [00:11:00] also about his friend. Oh, Brown. What's his first name? 

Hunter McLendon: [00:11:04] Robert Brown.

Annie: [00:11:06] Robert Brown. So the, they are dear friends. One is a Presbyterian minister. One is a congregationalist minister and it sets kind of in the Plains of Iowa and it is the first story is John Ames letter to his son and the second book and you're absolutely right. Like I did not remember how different Home reads. Home is set and they are, they're all dealing with the same characters. So think of like Olive Kittridge or I don't know even, I mean, lighter books, but the Mitford series, like it's all dealing with the same types of people and same family and same friends. But the, the way she tells the stories is so different, as an end is indicative and pointing to who the characters are.

Like, she's telling them in the ways those characters are written, but as I was reading Home and rereading Home. I did immediately feel like, because I feel like I am in the minority of people who like, didn't appreciate Go Set [00:12:00] a Watchman. I just, and I just stand by it. I, I stand by that opinion, but I did think, and I don't know if it's because in Home, an adult person is going home right. And it's taking care of her dad and you get that with Scout and Atticus in Go Set a Watchman but I love that you said that because yes, I absolutely felt that way rereading this. 

Hunter McLendon: [00:12:20] And they both, you know, they both are kind of addressing the fact that, um, because Robert Barton he's he's very clearly like, he's, he, uh, there's something that's very beautiful about his faith, but also he's a flawed human being and there is the, you know, there's discussions, cause this is around, I think it's in the 1950s around like there's like, um, civil rights movement discussion happening in this story. And it's I think that it's really important to when, especially when discussing, um, you know, people will face it like that, that we have a lot.

 We have a lot of like, there's a lot of growing that needs to be done and like, we have to acknowledge like some of our greater flaws and how as people and I [00:13:00] think it really is like addressing, like how you know, just because you're a person that face does not mean that, you know, you're absolved of like your racism or you're like, you know. 

Annie: [00:13:08] That's exactly right. These are characters who are coming face to face with in their terminology their sins, their humanity, their flawed nature, their racism, their bigotry and that's part of the reason I'm drawn to books like this because I, I want to learn and to do better and to, and to acknowledge my own flaws and so I love reading books. And I think that's one of the reasons Go Set a Watchman, some people really did not enjoy it, right? Because they preferred Atticus as this really kind of perfect man like this, which I just find the Atticus in Go Set a Watchman to be so much more realistic of his time and his geography and who he might have been. It doesn't diminish um, maybe some of his better qualities, but it does paint a, I think a more accurate picture of the [00:14:00] kind of man Atticus Finch would have been where he too had been a real person.

And I feel the same way about these ministers who are in the Midwest, who have, um, in their ancestry, these deep rooted uh, abolitionist movement like these ancestors who worked in the abolitionists movement and so I loved learning about that, but I also love that these characters are not perfect. These are characters that are coming face to face with their own biases and I, I appreciate that and I appreciate how Marilynne Robinson handles it even as a white writer. 

Hunter McLendon: [00:14:31] Well, and I also, it's so funny because I think in a similar way, a book we've talked about a lot that you and I both loved A Place For Us uh, you know, it's kind of reconciling with it's, it's different, you know, I believe they're Muslim. Yes. And you know, and something I really loved about that is that, you know, these, especially the father is kind of coming to terms with the fact that, you know, his son is, um, dealing with, you know, like with drug abuse and all of these things and he's trying to come to terms with this idea of like, you know, his son. [00:15:00] Th this whole thing about like where his, where he's going to be spiritually basically, like what his and I, and I think also I'm also noticing all of these books are like father son things. I, I ha I want to know more about like what this is. 

Annie: [00:15:11] Yeah. They're well, they're, multi-generational because I think for a lot of us, and again, I think this crosses worldviews and religious preferences, I think a lot of us, if we grew up in a kind of faith or rooted in a belief system, that is because of our parents or because of our grandparents or because of who went before us and so then as a lot of us are growing up and, and reaching adulthood and asking questions and taking things under reconsideration, we by very, our very nature than our budding up against the traditions and the worldviews, not only that have been passed on to us, but that our parents might still be living and still experiencing.

And so one of the reasons, I mean, I still love, and maybe it's time for a reread, but one of the reasons I love A Place For Us so much is because, no, I [00:16:00] was not raised in the Muslim faith. I happened to be raised in the Christian faith, but a lot of what these characters are dealing with, I feel like I too have had to deal with. Difficult questions and difficult answers, difficult conversations with people who are older than me, or with people who are coming up behind me.

I think if you are rooted in a community of faith, that is very much, or it is often a multi-generational experience and so I grew up in a church with people who were one step ahead of me and one step behind me just by sheer, you know, age or experience. And the conversations I had with both of those types of people was very different and you can see that playing out in A Place For Us and you're right, it's a father son story.

 I also just think of these as familial stories so I'm thinking about, um, Transcendent Kingdom is one of my recent favorites faith books, and I think that's why for us faith books encompass a lot of things. I don't know that Transcendent Kingdom would like be shelved in like a section. Um, but the character [00:17:00] gifty is really dealing with the religion that has been passed down to her from her mother and how does it play a part in her life as she watches her brother, uh, deal with his drug addiction. And what does that have to do within the career she goes forward into science and neurology, and so all of these Facebooks are also at their root, I think probably somewhat dysfunctional family books. They're family books, about families who are grappling with these issues that I know my own family grapples with. 

Hunter McLendon: [00:17:34] All right. And I'll see, you know, like when we think about faith, at least something that always comes to my mind is community and what does community, except for like, you know, a larger, like, kind of in a way it's a family, you know what I mean? It is like family, family is like this like small community of like, you know, it's like, it's a, and then the church family is like a greater, you know, and I think that every, I think, no matter what, what faith you are, you belong to, or don't belong to, I think that there's [00:18:00] there, you will find people who are like-minded and you will share these things and so yeah. 

Annie: [00:18:04] You know, it's occurring to me while you're talking, I didn't even include this list on my little or this book on my little list or outline, but I just finished the romcom book, The Trouble with Hating You and this was a book we read in our book club and main character is Hindu and she lives in Texas and so it's kind of a story about arranged marriages and all these kinds of things but there is some really interesting stuff about this generational faith. So, and in her case, she happens to be Hindu. And so the religious practices that her family is involved in and the things that she no longer wants to be a part of and why she no longer wants to be a part of them.

And so so much of what she is experiencing, I think you would find in dysfunctional family literature, but instead it's set at a community, a, a church, a temple. Like these characters, having to deal with the issues that I think families face, but I guess on a [00:19:00] larger scale that faith community face and I did not even realize until talking to you that that is really technically another faith book, it feels like where she was really grappling with the traditions of her childhood and the traditions that her parents still chose to be a part of and whether or not she wanted a part of it anymore. 

And I, I love those. And I think about, um, The Mothers by Brit Bennett, which is still one of my favorite books of the last 10 years and how she specifically is talking about the Black experience and the Black Christian experience and how the kind of Greek chorus in that book are these church mothers and how vibrant they are and how, why is they are and how much influence and impact they have on the main character and so I think this sense of community and a larger spirit of community certainly play a role in the books about faith that I am drawn to.

Hunter McLendon: [00:19:57] Well and something else. So speaking of, you know, like, [00:20:00] uh, how Brit Bennett talks about like, you know, the Black evangelical experience and the way and what you're talking about with, what does the book, you said The Trouble with Hating You, you know, I think a lot about how something and really fascinating specifically about when we're, when you see like, um, People of color or women or queer people writing about faith is that you are immediately coming from a place of it's very complicated, right because like a lot of these places have been used to like oppress people in a certain capacity. 

And so, you know, not, maybe not like maybe not like the faith, but you know, like, uh, in Giliead, she talks about how faith is not doctrine, right. It's not like it's not the issue, separate things about like the organized religion versus.

Annie: [00:20:40] Yeah. Define our terms. 

Hunter McLendon: [00:20:42] Yeah. Right. And so I think a lot about how, you know, it's, there is that complication of like having the association of the people around you, interpreting things to like, kind of hold you down or to like do these things versus what your actual faith is like a spiritual connection that you have with the higher power [00:21:00] um, if that's what you, you know, 

Annie: [00:21:02] Yeah, absolutely. I think for, yeah, for me and look, I'm a white middle-class woman, but I had my own issues with a church that I grew up in, um, really limiting the role women could play, limiting the leadership qualities or traits that a woman could exhibit and feeling like the higher power that God, I believe in, in the God I serve, um, wouldn't, wouldn't act that way at all, or wouldn't, uh, wouldn't um, things that at all and so I, myself, to a very small extent felt myself kind of budding up against that.

 I'm reminded of one of my favorite memoirs. I think it's one of yours too. Here for It by R. Eric Thomas and he covers all kinds of territory. Right? I mean, that book is laugh out loud funny about pop culture, but, and I don't know if you remember, but a couple of essays in there he specifically talks about his faith and his church going experience and I [00:22:00] wept because um, R. Eric Thomas is a gay Black man and how the, the bigotry, I guess, is the best term I can use, or the maybe hate that he experienced or sometimes faced in his faith experience and how difficult it was for him to hold on to his belief and hold onto his faith when he was being treated in such a way.

And I, you know, one minute I'm laughing about like some snarkey thing he's saying about a celebrity and then the next minute I'm weeping on the couch, thinking about the wrongs that have been done in the name of God and the wrongs that have been committed upon his children and so it's, I love that book and I know, again, this isn't a book that maybe you might automatically think, Oh, this is a faith book like, but it is a to me. There are a couple of essays in there that are really talking deeply about belief and action and, and how our humanness affects our belief [00:23:00] system. 

Hunter McLendon: [00:23:01] Well, and it's so funny too, because like, listen, like, like, you know, I like this, this is not like a, this is not anyone trying to get on the pedestal and trying to like save anybody but I think something that's really interesting is like, I think a lot about Christian fiction and how like people say the motivation is to, is to like, is to say people are to do these things, whatever. But I think that the only time I've ever either like, had, had a yearning for two to like, Come back to that or to even just like get my time in it all has been these people who are really exploring like the complications they've had. These, these, these mixed feelings. These, you know, just, just the struggles of it and being really honest and also doing it in a way that just feels very like of the real world, like the secular world. You know what I mean?

Annie: [00:23:44] I think there's an authenticity and I mean, that's a buzzword that I think our generation uses a lot, but I do think we have a desire for the authentic and I also think we live every day in the world with people who believe differently from us and I'm not just talking about religion, I'm just [00:24:00] talking about in general. We experienced people who come at things from a different angle than we do and so I think as a reader, I want to read about people who are living that experience too.

 I don't really want to always read about, um, people whose faith exists in a vacuum. I want to read about people whose faith is prominent in their lives, but it also maybe is quieter then we give it credit for, I think I'm drawn to characters for whom faith is just this quiet thing that continues to be a part of the breath that they take and I, I don't know. I think about books like The Dearly Beloved or the Explanation for Everything, which is a great backlist title I had forgotten about until I was sitting down to prep for this conversation and in those books.

 And again, going back to Transcendent Kingdom, these are characters who are dealing with belief in science versus belief in a higher power. Can those things be married to one another? Can those things co-exist alongside each other? And those are [00:25:00] the kinds of conversations I feel like I have in my real, everyday life and I want to read about that and I know there is a place for like escapist literature, and I know there is a place for books that make you feel safe and warm and cozy, but I feel hugged by a book. I feel comfoted by a book when I can read and think, Oh, there are people who doubt. There are people who struggle. Um, there are people who leave their faith for a bit and then come back to it. Or there are people who maybe never take part in a faith or belief system, but they're willing to have hard conversations with people who do. I mean, that's, that's what I'm interested in. 

Hunter McLendon: [00:25:39] Well, and it's so funny because something I love so much about books, like Preistdaddy, which we read and love together and The Incendiaries, which we both read and love to go sure. We read love everything, what do you want, you know? But you know, both of those books are books that are about people who understand the who, who, who are no longer people of faith, but who [00:26:00] understand there's there's so there's so many complicated feelings about it, right? Because they understand the feeling of like, of wanting to be a part of that or wanting to be in it and seeing the beauty in certain aspects of it but also seeing how, if, if wielded with the, you know, with the power hands like that, it can kind of turn really nasty, really fast.

Annie: [00:26:17] Yeah, there's a beauty to it, which I think all of the books we've talked about really explore the beauty of faith, but there's also an underbelly, right and an underbelly to certain kinds of theology, bad theology. There's an underbelly to these things and, and so I like books that are willing to explore that and I think that's part of the reason we liked reading Preistdaddy and look, there were parts of Preistdaddy that were shocking to me as the prudish prudish reader that I am. 

There were things about Preistdaddy that were shocking to me and yet underneath it all, I felt like this was somebody who understood and still had a respect for faith, even at the same time while perhaps occasionally having a [00:27:00] disdain for it, or at least a critique of it, maybe disdain is the wrong word, but, but willing to critique it, but critique it while also acknowledging there are people for whom faith is deeply personal and valuable, and I'm still willing to, to look at it with a critical lens, but also with a bit of a tender one and a loving one. 

Hunter McLendon: [00:27:22] Okay. Oh yeah, for sure. And, and also, you know, so we've talked to like, um, I talk about Mary Karr way too often, but I, her third memor, Lit is part of this part of it and she talks a lot of things, but a major part of it is her journey of, um, getting sober through, um, becoming a Catholic and something that I love, she calls herself a cafeteria Catholic, uh, because she's like, she's like, you know, she's like kind of like picking and choosing. Yeah. 

So she says, you know, she it's so funny cause she talks about how, you know, it really did save her life, but that she is very aware of how [00:28:00] harmful the Catholic church in some ways has been. And so she has, you know, she's like kind of dealing with these two things, right? And like both things can be true. Like it can be a lifesaver to her and it can also have like come from, like there could be a system that has like caused a lot of harm and she does kind of talk a little bit about reconciling with, and especially later she's talked a lot with, um, she talks a lot in interviews about kind of coming to terms with both of those things and I find that really interesting too. 

Annie: [00:28:25] I do too, because I think if you grew up, like I did one of the flaws in Christian fiction or Christian non-fiction was a lack of acknowledgement of the pain that it could cause and one of the redemptive things that I like about authors who are willing to grapple a little bit is with acknowledging it's both and, and look, I struggle with that in my own faith life and in my own things that I wear, I don't know what I fully believe or where I don't fully understand, uh, for me what the scripture say or what I've been taught or what I feel logically [00:29:00] believe. Like I think I struggle with those things a lot and I that's the conversations, those are the conversations I have with my friends and with people I trust. 

But i, I really respect a writer or a friend or a person who is willing to say, Oh, like my faith is beautiful and it's important to me. Or the way I grew up is special and powerful. And it means something deep to me, but also I know how it can hurt or I know how harmful it has the potential to be, because I, I do think it has been wielded for both and I think there's a lot of conversation at least, at least the conversations I most want to be a part of are ones that are willing to say both and, and where there's a lot of gray. 

I mean, you know, me and you know how, um, I am drawn typically toward the middle way and, uh, towards a little bit of gray rather than black and white and I think those are my favorite types of faith  books. I think I especially find that to be true in faith memoir. [00:30:00] I was thinking about Walking on Water, obviously, which is a little bit different, but also, and it's got this really great title, but the New York Regional Mormon Singles Halloween Dance. This is by Ulna Baker, who I first heard on like "This American Life" and she wrote this great book about growing up Mormon and, and into adulthood, um, leaning on and relying on her Mormon faith and what that looked like when she moved to New York city and, and what a culture, culture shock that was. 

And then I've continued kind of following Ulna Baker's  stories through "This American Life" and through some other things that she's written and ultimately her choosing to leave the Mormon faith and what that looked like for her. I think fiction books do this well too, but there is something about a writer's personal story and experience that I find myself really drawn to and really comforted by even if the writer and I ultimately reach different conclusions in our own personal faith journeys, I, it's like I've [00:31:00] enjoyed walking it with them because I have taken the same stumbles or I have investigated the same things or I have wept over the same hurts and it there's just something about reading a book about somebody's personal experience. Mary Karr. I got to read that book. I've got to read Lit.

Hunter McLendon: [00:31:20] I know, I know. I know you would. I know what you read The Liars Club, which you enjoyed. So, you know, and there's also, there's another one, Cherry. Anyway, I won't get into it, but it's very good. 

Annie: [00:31:34] I, I, as much as, and I think you and I are both this way, like as much as I am drawn to literary fiction and I love investigating thing, these things under a fictional storytelling device, I also really like hearing from the people themselves and hearing from people who have traveled the road before me, who are traveling the road alongside me. There is something really profound, I think [00:32:00] about hearing about somebody's faith through their own voice and in their own telling. Yeah. 

Hunter McLendon: [00:32:05] Well, did you ever read, um, Boy Erased? 

Annie: [00:32:08] No, I didn't. 

Hunter McLendon: [00:32:11] Did you watch the movie?

Annie: [00:32:13] No.

Hunter McLendon: [00:32:13] Uh, it's okay. There's time. Um, but I think that's something that I, I will say that, you know, cause he goes to like a conversion therapy program. Um, it's like about this gay man who, uh, Gerard Conley, I think his name is, but, um, it's about that and, and he goes to this conversion therapy thing. His parents pay for it because his father is a Pastor or something and, and the mom kind of agrees to it initially, but it's kind of about her realizing how, like, how it, like they're being tortured is what's happening and, and in the name of God. 

And, and it's so interesting to watch because his, and to read because his mother is very, very clearly so dedicated to being the best possible, you know um [00:33:00] Christian but she can be and, and, and so is he. You know, even that's something I'm going to is that I think a lot about how, when your, when your faith begins to conflict with your very identity, it is a very hard thing to process at any capacity, like it, it feels almost impossible. And, and so I think, I don't know and I think it explores that in a lot of ways and I want to see more people do that because I think that it's just really, it's interesting and it's, and it's also a necessary. 

Annie: [00:33:29] I wondered because you and I do come to these conversations, we do come to this conversation different differently, and I wondered almost why you are cause you and I are reading tastes have a pretty significant overlap in terms of Venn diagram. And one of the ways we do overlap, I think, and correct me if I'm wrong, but I think is in this kind of faith genre, and yet you have every reason to, to shun these books or to shun faith or to shun conversations [00:34:00] about faith. I feel like you have every reason to kind of disregard these. Why do you think you're still drawn to these stories? 

Hunter McLendon: [00:34:08] Chino. It's so funny because, um, you know, this, I have been, I've been kicked out of a lot of churches, never for the reasons you think. Um, it's fine, but, and it's funny cause I, you know, and I have like, and I have had a lot of, I've had a lot of conflict with people in the church, but i, I guess, you know, I, okay. I know what it is. You and my Granny both are people who I really respect and admire, and I know that both of your motivations for, and, and, and, and what you, and what you really strive for are based in your faith and the kind of person I want to be is like, every time that you and I have a conversation, all I think is I would love to be more like Annie.

And I know that it's based and I know it's based in your, and I know that's partly based on you and you trying to be like a very good person because of your faith and I [00:35:00] think, Oh, wow. Like, I don't know. And so I guess in a way I'm kind of seeing what you're seeing whenever, like, when I read books by Marilynne Robinson and stuff, I'm seeing what you're seeing and I'm trying to like incorporate that, even if it's not necessarily taking this, my faith into consideration entirely, I still think about like what from your faith journey, have you taken to become a better person? And so I, I guess that's the way. 

Annie: [00:35:19] Okay, well, thanks for making me cry. Thanks for making me cry. I do think, you know, I was texting Jordan when I was rereading Gilead and, um, I knew you and I were going to be talking and but I was texting him and Jordan has never read Gilead though. I think he would love it. I feel about that. The way you feel about me reading Lit by Mary Karr, I think, but I, I know he would love it, but I texted it to him and Jordan knows all the kinds of things I read and I read widely and, and I read excellent books, some of which have nothing to do with faith and yet they are still utter works of art that I love and I'm happy to get to sell.

 But the word that he used [00:36:00] and you just used it too and I want to kind of explore it more, but I don't know how, but when I texted him a picture of Gilead and I said, Oh, look what I'm rereading and I sent him like a snippet of the book and Jordan said, Oh, you're reading something so good. And I think what he meant is like, in the truest sense of the word, not like, um, God, I don't want to start sounding like an evangelical preacher, but like the phrase from the new Testament about like, Filling your heart with whatsoever things are good and pure and trustworthy and worthy of respect.

That's like the phrase that goes in my mind and when I think about the books, I love even if they have nothing to do with faith, books that are pure works of art and they are good and they are worthy to be like in your heart and ingrained in your brain. Like that is what I want to surround myself with and so there's something about that word good that I just really think when I talk about faith books, that's what I'm [00:37:00] drawn to. Even if the face has nothing to do with mine. The characters in a place for us are dealing with things that I've never had to deal with. Um also dealing with some things that I do have to deal with.

Um, but their faith looks very different from mine and yet oh, it's very hard. That book is good and so, I don't know. I don't know what I mean, even when I'm saying that word, but it was funny to me that it's the same word that Jordan texted me and it's the same word you just used when talking about your granny or, um, it's, it's just this idea of goodness and I don't know, I don't know how quite to unpack that in 2021, like what does goodness mean? Because I think that can get messy, but I, but I think that is the word I kind of keep coming back to. 

Hunter McLendon: [00:37:42] Well, yeah, and I think, you know, I've been thinking a lot about, obviously. Like this whole thing is kind of framed through Marilynne Robinson in a way, because of like what, you know, when you're reading it and I think, and I think that's something right, is that like, these are people who are clearly trying their best to be good, especially Jack [00:38:00] who I really love as a character. I think that he is trying so hard to be good, even though, even though he knows that certain aspects of uh, Jack is, is Robert Balton's son who was like this and Home is kind of like a retelling of the prodigal son in a way.

And, and I think that there's something to be said about somebody who is trying so hard to be good and kind, no matter what, because the thing is it's impossible to always be good. Right. It's impossible to always be good and kind, and, and so I think that striving for that and every moment, because the thing is right like this, because it's not just being good in kind just generally. Like it is about like making active decisions to be good to every person in a way that is good for them.

Annie: [00:38:44] Yes. Yes. Yes. That's exactly right. Yeah. You know, I, I, I know we're running short on time, but I did want to mention, we've talked about Middlemarch a little bit, and I think we've talked about in you and I are like having a slow burn love affair with [00:39:00] Middlemarch. Like it was not like hot and heavy and fun.

It's real tedious. Um, but I think we're getting to the point where we're understanding those characters a little bit more and I think a lot of those characters, right, are people who are striving to be good and to be good for other humans and I listened to, and I don't know if you do, but, um, I listened to this podcast on occasion called the Bible Binge.

I don't listen to it all the time, but I love their series on faith called Faith Adjacent and this last episode was about Jane Austen. Hm, and I did not fully realize, and this was super naive of me considering I grew up deeply entrenched in Christian faith. I did not realize that Jane Austen also did and until I, until I, um, you know, fun fact went to London a couple of years ago, I just want to throw that into conversation and realized what a profound impact Jane Austen's faith had on her writing. 

And now that I'm kind of revisiting those stories and in some cases, reading these [00:40:00] books for the first time, I'm realizing that these characters, even like the flawed ones and there are some seriously flawed ones and she makes a lot of clergy deeply flawed, which I find fascinating. But these are characters who ultimately.Are just trying to be good and you're absolutely right. It's not like trying to be just generally good. It's trying to work toward good for the betterment of other people and like, what is good and true for this person or for these characters?

 And so I am, I was struck by because we have been reading some of these classics like Middlemarch and I'm listening to Sense and Sensibility for the first time I'm realizing there is this theme of these characters who are trying really hard, but there's something about that that I really respect and that I desperately want in my own life and that I find a kinship with in my reading life. 

Hunter McLendon: [00:40:53] Yeah. Oh, that's so beautiful. 

Annie: [00:40:56] Hunter, thank you. [00:41:00] I hope people enjoy this episode because really this is just basically me and you having a conversation.

Hunter McLendon: [00:41:07] This was what we used to do like before the pandemic, when we'd be sitting at Sonny's Barbecue. 

Annie: [00:41:11] Yes. That's exactly right. We might as well have a mic at the table because this is exactly right. So, um, if you were listening to this, this is slightly different from maybe a typical From the Front Porch episode, but this is, these are the kinds of conversations I love having, and I love having them with you and your generous spirit and, um, thank you for, for talking about this with me.

Hunter McLendon: [00:41:30] Thank you for having me 

Annie: [00:41:33] from the front porch is a weekly podcast production of the bookshelf and independent bookstore in South Georgia. You can follow the bookshelves daily happenings on Instagram at bookshelf. TiVo and all the books from today's episode can be purchased online through our store website, www dot bookshelf, thomasville.com.

A full transcript of today's episode can be found@fromthefrontporchpodcast.com [00:42:00] special thanks to Dylan and his team at studio D production for sound and editing and for our theme music, which sets the perfect, warm, and friendly tone for our Thursday conversations this week, I'm reading great circle by Maggie ship stead.

Hunter. What are you reading? 

Hunter McLendon: [00:42:16] I'm reading, crying at age, March based on your recommendation and loving it. 

Annie: [00:42:20] Yay. Oh, that makes me so happy. If you liked what you heard on today's episode, tell us by leaving a review on iTunes, or if you're so inclined, support us on Patrion, where you can hear our steps weekly and new released Tuesday conversations, read full book reviews in our monthly shelf.

Life newsletter follow along as Hunter and I conquer a classic and receive free media mail shipping on all your online book orders. Just to go to patrion.com forward slash from the front porch. We're so grateful for you. And we look forward to meeting back here next time. [00:43:00] .

From the Front Porch is a weekly podcast production of The Bookshelf, an independent bookstore in South Georgia. You can follow The Bookshelf’s daily happenings on Instagram at @bookshelftville, and all the books from today’s episode can be purchased online through our store website, www.bookshelfthomasville.com. 

A full transcript of today’s episode can be found at www.fromthefrontporchpodcast.com.

Special thanks to Dylan and his team at Studio D Production for sound and editing and for our theme music, which sets the perfect warm and friendly tone for our Thursday conversations. 

This week, I’m reading Great Circle by Maggie Shipstead. 

Hunter. What are you reading? 

Hunter McLendon: [00:42:16] I'm reading, Crying at H Mart based on your recommendation and loving it. 

If you liked what you heard on today’s episode, tell us by leaving a review on iTunes. Or, if you’re so inclined, support us on Patreon, where you can hear our staff’s weekly New Release Tuesday conversations, read full book reviews in our monthly Shelf Life newsletter, follow along as Hunter and I conquer a classic, and receive free media mail shipping on all your online book orders. Just go to patreon.com/fromthefrontporch. 

We’re so grateful for you, and we look forward to meeting back here next week.

episodes, special guestAnnie Jones

a weekly conversational podcast on books, small business, and life in the South