Episode 325 || Reading to Understand with Sharon Says So

This week, Annie is joined by America’s government teacher, Sharon McMahon. Sharon is the mastermind behind the Instagram account Sharon Says So. She and Annie tackle how best to read to understand, how fiction helps cultivate empathy, and why becoming a lifelong learner is so important..

To purchase the books mentioned in this episode, visit our new website:

Sea Biscuit by Laura Hillenbrand
American Sherlock by Kate Winkler Dawson
Dead Wake by Erik Larson
You Never Forget Your First by Alexis Coe
Empire of Pain by Patrick Radden Keefe

Sharon’s favorite podcasts:

Office Ladies
Sharon Says So (coming soon!)

Sharon’s suggested press reading:

From the Front Porch is a weekly podcast production of The Bookshelf, an independent bookstore in South Georgia. You can follow The Bookshelf’s daily happenings on Instagram at @bookshelftville, and all the books from today’s episode can be purchased online through our store website, www.bookshelfthomasville.com.

A full transcript of today’s episode can be found below.

Special thanks to Dylan and his team at Studio D Production for sound and editing and for our theme music, which sets the perfect warm and friendly tone for our Thursday conversations.

This week, Annie is reading Beautiful World, Where Are You by Sally Rooney and Sharon is reading Empire of Pain by Patrick Radden Keefe.

If you liked what you heard on today’s episode, tell us by leaving a review on iTunes. Or, if you’re so inclined, support us on Patreon, where you can hear our staff’s weekly New Release Tuesday conversations, read full book reviews in our monthly Shelf Life newsletter, follow along as Hunter and I conquer a classic, and receive free media mail shipping on all your online book orders. Just go to patreon.com/fromthefrontporch.

We’re so grateful for you, and we look forward to meeting back here next week.

episode transcript

Welcome to From the Front Porch, a conversational podcast about books, small business, and life in the South.

“In the case of good books, the point is not to see how many of them you can get through, but rather how many can get through to you.”

- Mortimer J. Adler

I’m Annie Jones, owner of The Bookshelf, an independent bookstore in beautiful downtown Thomasville, Georgia, and today, I am thrilled to be joined by America’s government teacher, Sharon McMahon. Sharon is the mastermind behind the Instagram account Sharon Says So, where she reports on the day’s news and calmly answers questions about everything from the secession of Texas to which sea creature is best. (For me, it’s the manatee, obviously.) Today, Sharon and I are tackling how best to read to understand, how fiction helps cultivate empathy, and why becoming a lifelong learner is so important.

Hi, Sharon! I’m so glad you’re here.

Sharon: [00:01:20] Hello. Thank you so much for having me.

Annie: [00:01:21] I'm so glad you're here. This is really an honor for me so thank you for joining me.

Sharon: [00:01:25] My pleasure.

Annie: [00:01:26] So I have been following along with Sharon Says So, the account on Instagram since probably the latter part of 2020. I think I found you, I want to say right before the 2020 election. I was just drawn to your calm presence on the internet. Um, you also, we tease in my family, watching Sharon is like watching Annie. I'm an INTJ. My husband, Jordan, who is a lawyer and an Enneagram three. And then my cousin, Ashley, who occasionally is on the podcast who loves sea animals. So it's like watch, [00:02:00] it's like watching a member of our family and I mean that in the best possible.

Sharon: [00:02:04] I love it.

Annie: [00:02:05] So for listeners who may not be familiar with your work or your Instagram account, I'm curious what your elevator pitch is kind of when you're meeting people for the first time and maybe what was the impetus behind the Instagram account, because I'm not sure I fully know?

Sharon: [00:02:20] Sure. Well, you know, I'm a teacher, I'm not a political pundit. I'm not somebody who is, you know, I don't work for some big corporation. I don't work for the government. I'm just a government and law teacher and so my, my mission or my thinking behind this account is that it is really hard to form educated opinions when you have no education. It's really, there's many topics on which I don't have an educated opinion because I have no education on that topic. You know, like if you said, if you asked me which, which type of rocket [00:03:00] booster we should use to send this spacecraft to Mars, I have no idea. I have no opinion on that. I have no education on that topic. You know what I mean?

So I really started noticing an incredible amount of misinformation floating around the internet about things like how the government works, what the constitution actually says, what is what's possible? What's not possible? What's likely, what is unlikely? I started noticing a lot of, a lot of that last year and I just decided, you know, what I'm going to do is instead of arguing with strangers, which it turns out does not work well, very few people's minds are like, well, thank you, stranger. I have now changed my opinion. Um, I decided instead of arguing with strangers that I would just make some little explainer videos and just be like, actually, here's how the electoral college works. Here is what a contingent deduction is. Here, you know, just little short, five minute videos and the rest, as they say is history.

[00:04:00] Annie: [00:04:01] I can totally see how, especially it feels like 2020 was this huge kind of smorgasbord of chaos, right? Like we going through a global pandemic, in America we were living through a pretty contentious election and so it was refreshing to see someone on the internet., Like I said, I was drawn to your calm way of kind of answering questions and we're going to talk about maybe some of the questions you're presented with, but the calm way you answered them and, and this is what I love cause I we're going to talk about your summer programming, which I'm a, I'm a member of, and I saw the, your followers, including myself, engage in some discussion last night that I could tell, wow, Sharon has facilitated a really powerful community here because one of the things I like about you is when you say you don't know and I feel like we live in a time where it's hard to say, you don't know, and maybe that's because of pride or just the fact that we have little computers attached to our hands and so we think we know everything about everything.

[00:05:00] And I think it was last week. I was following along with you and people were asking questions about Dr. Fauchi's emails and you were like, I don't know yet. I'm going to do some reading and get back with you and I was like, no one says that anymore. No one says, oh, I don't know. Let me educate myself and then I'll be able to better answer this question. So is this something that comes naturally to you? Is this directly in response to what you like me kind of saw on the internet?

Sharon: [00:05:26] Well, okay. I mean, I think it's difficult for humans in general to admit that they don't know something because we have a, we have a deep seated fear of looking stupid, right. We really do that is innate in our, in our psyche is we don't want to look dumb. Um, I read one study that talked about how the women's primary fear in life just going through life is that they will be violently attacked in some way. That they will be kidnapped, [00:06:00] raped, murdered, whatever, you know, like we all, as women have that subconscious fear of like, Ooh, don't walk alone at night. You know what I'm talking about?

Men's primary fear in life was, um, being humiliated and so we, we, women and men do deeply fear being humiliated and so I think some of that is again, um, innate personality characteristics, but it is absolutely exacerbated by social media, which, uh, you know, I am a very avid social media user. I love social media. I'm not here to tell you to get off of social media altogether, but the ability to just read something, you like take it as gospel because you like it and then repost it and then get into an argument with strangers, you know, in the comment section that has never existed before. You know what I mean? Like that is, that is new in the last 25 years [00:07:00] and it's actually even more new in the last 10 years.

Annie: [00:07:05] Yeah, we're dealing. I forget. I think we forget all the time that we're dealing with a new media that we don't know quite what to do with and I don't think we fully know the implications of it either.

Sharon: [00:07:13] No.

Annie: [00:07:14] I want to talk about on your account. So not only are you answering questions, but one of the things I love about what you do is, and it's like you would see in a well-run classroom, I think, is you give different sides and different worldviews the chance to say their opinion or their belief system. You get, you give people the chance to kind of stake their side. Um, and then you kind of act as a facilitator and you don't, you don't really point to one side is better than the other at all. You just kind of, are you say, here are what conservatives think about this issue. Here, what liberals here are, what moderate thing and so I want to talk about that and how you also though I've noticed in your questions that are in the answers that people tell you, you [00:08:00] also are quick to delineate between something that is an opinion and something that is a fact.

And so I think in, in my bookstore, and in my day to day life, we are constantly at the bookshelf facilitating conversations with our customers and we are constantly engaging with literature and putting literature into people's hands and it's really an exchange of ideas, right? That's what a bookstore is. And so I'm curious how you facilitate these conversations in a way that allows people to state their worldviews or their opinions or their beliefs, but you also kind of temper opinions and really espouse facts? And I, again, I find that very unusual in today's, uh, discourse,

Sharon: [00:08:42] It is very unusual on the internet. I mean, people make money by being divisive. That is how the money is made. You know, like if, if I go on social media and I'm like, you know, there might be more than one way to think about this topic. You're [00:09:00] much less likely to click than if I am like X person is on Nazi, right. You're even if you're like, if you disagree with that, you're like click on it because you want to be like, that is ridiculous and those clicks, those clicks are money, right? So the, you know, the clickbait nature of modern um, civil discourse or uncivil discourse, absolutely um, promotes that kind of rhetoric.

Anyway, um, I'm, I'm not because I'm not hired by some company to get as many clicks as possible. I really approach this from the position of a classroom teacher, which is students need to be in a safe learning environment and you cannot be in a safe learning environment in which people are screaming obscenities at each other. That's not a safe learning environment. It's not a safe learning environment for one person to call somebody [00:10:00] names and why they're an idiot. That's not, that's not environment in which people can learn and grow. That's an environment in which anger and resentment takes root and that's an environment in which, you know, that's the breeding ground for hate.

So my, my goal is a safe learning environment and a safe learning environment doesn't mean that everybody will then agree with the positions that I have decided upon. Um, it is really more about learning how to think about an issue versus what to think about an issue, except there's one exception, which is that we're not going to pretend that facts are not facts, and we're not going to pretend that things that are real are actually real. We're going to say like, actually today is X date on the calendar, and then you can have your opinion [00:11:00] on how you feel about Wednesdays. You know what I mean? But you're you don't, we're not gonna pretend it's not Wednesday because we, that is, you know, serves us somehow. It is actually Wednesday and then let's talk about, are Wednesdays good or Wednesdays bad. You know what I mean? Like that's where the opinion comes in is your feelings, your viewpoints about the fact that it is Wednesday.

Annie: [00:11:23] You know, so much of what you're saying and you even preface it at the beginning of your answer is I think we're having this or at least I hope I am. We're having these conversations and these discussions and this kind of discourse in person. Like, I feel like in my bookstore or around my dinner table, I would like to think my discourse looks similar to what you're describing, but it's on the internet where we are faceless and where we are sometimes anonymous, um, where I think we're getting into trouble.

I mean, and I, I, I don't have such high high view of my own, uh, conversations. I have no doubt that conversations [00:12:00] exist um, that are contentious and, um, anger and resentment fueled. I know that that happens, but I guess I think about my brother, who's a teacher and who's facilitating classroom conversations. My husband, who's an attorney working alongside other attorneys, um, for the good of the constitution and the good of the government and I think, and he works with all kinds of attorneys who have all kinds of different opinions, but they work together and they work alongside each other and sometimes I spend a lot more time on the internet than my husband does and sometimes I will tell him things and he is flummoxed because the in-person conversations he is having look, nothing like the conversations, the internet. That's just fascinating to me.

Sharon: [00:12:37] That's right. My husband is not very big on social media. Um, he basically has an Instagram account to be able to read what I put on Instagram and that is all he does. Um, he has no interest in following other people or whatever. He just trying to see what I'm up to. Um, but when I will tell him about like, oh, did you know, he'll be like, what are you even [00:13:00] talking about right now? Like, what is, what is that? And I'm like, oh, you weren't aware of this and that? He hasn't. He's like, no, where wouldn't, but where would I have heard about? And my husband is a news junkie. He listens to the news, watches the news, reads the news actually many hours a day. So he, he is a very, very informed citizen, but because he is not active on social media, some of the stuff that I answer questions about, he is like that, I've never heard that and you know, and even as somebody who talks about this stuff all day. She's never heard some of the stuff that is being floated around social media.

Annie: [00:13:40] Which is bonkers to me and, uh, and sometimes my husband looks at me and I'm like, no, no, it's not me. It's the internet. Cause he has taught me it's the internet, but I think that's fascinating and I think last year in particular, we talked about kind of this confluence of events. Like we all spent many people spent more time on the internet than ever, right. They were working. [00:14:00] They w you know, they were homeschooling their kids, virtual schooling, their kids and so I think we all spent more time on the internet than ever and I think that contributed to this lack of face time we were having with the people we know and live next to and instead we were on the internet, um, you know, getting into arguments with people we don't know.

Sharon: [00:14:18] That's true. Great point. Yep.

Annie: [00:14:21] So the women of Pantsuit Politics have this concept and other people do too but I know I came across it in their book, this idea about listening to understand, and this idea that before we listened to argue, we listen to understand and it got me thinking that certainly that's what you're doing on the internet. Um, but what about the concept of reading to understand? So you occasionally will recommend, um, books or articles. I am curious what nonfiction books you typically recommend to people who come to you seeking more information about a topic or seeking some [00:15:00] explanation?

I, I think about, um, Because some, I had some contentious, um, interactions in my store during the past year because of masks being required in my store and, um, I will never forget a customer coming up and being pretty abrasive and she looked at me and she said, well, have you ever read the constitution? And I was able to say, well, yes I have and I know what my constitutional right is and I mean, she left, it was not a pleasant experience, but she was a little, she was a little bit shocked.

Like, yeah, I have read the constitution. Thank you so much but I am aware of much of my constitutional rights. It was fascinating and of course one could argue, she also had read the constitution, perhaps interpreted things differently but I'm curious when you think about the concept of reading to understand other than something like the constitution, what are you recommending to people to be reading?

Sharon: [00:15:52] Hmm, well, I love to read. I've always been a reader and I tend to recommend [00:16:00] books that. To me were very personally impactful or that I gained a tremendous amount of clarity from those are, you know, more, more so than just, oh, that was really fun. You know what I mean? I, it's not that I don't enjoy those books um, but because I do, but I also feel like those books are much more easy to come by. You could walk into, go into target, pick up one of 100 titles that are just like fun and easy to read page turners, nothing wrong with that genre. Um, but that tends to be, um, you know, I don't, I don't use my, a small number of recommendations on those kinds of books generally.

So, you know, I have a handful of titles that I just like, I have recommended at least 20 times on my Instagram platform and that people message me frequently and they were like, I was floored by that book. What else can I, what else do you have? Give me more of your recommendations? So, um, I do love like my, my personal favorite [00:17:00] genre is, is narrative non-fiction in which somebody has an incredible story to tell and they're an incredible storyteller. That to me is always like, that's what I'm drawn to um, and that's why I love authors like Laura Hillenbrand, who to me is truly one of the, it's just an absolute master of narrative non-fiction and it makes you, makes you interested in topics where you're like, am I interested in race horses? Nope. But then you read Seabiscuit and you're like that I could not put that down. Am I, you know, my interested in this, you know, like the Pacific theater of world war II and like plane design or whatever, not really like, I mean kind of, but like, nah, I'm not going to pick a book, but then you read Unbroken and you, you read it three more times because it's that it's that impactful. So that's, those tend to be, you know what I keep coming back to that type of that genre is my personal favorites.

Annie: [00:17:56] You know, that's not the first genre I'm always [00:18:00] drawn toward. Part, partly because I have to read so much and those books took me longer and I have to read so much so that I can so that I can sell sell books but I remember this was an odd beach read selection, but I read Eric Larson's book called Dead Weight about the sinking of the Lusitania and I remember just being completely swept up in that story and narrative non-fiction has often, if not changed, my mind certainly opened my eyes and I always finish and think, man, I wish somebody had made me read this in school because this brought history alive for me, in a way my history textbooks in school never did.

Sharon: [00:18:37] Oh, of course.

Annie: [00:18:39] That's such a loss. Oh, that, that makes me so sad as a bookseller, as a reader, as a lifelong learner, I just think to myself, oh gosh. In high school, I would have been obsessed with this if somebody had just put the right book in my head.

Sharon: [00:18:51] Yeah.

Annie: [00:18:53] So the Bookshelf has always had pretty good nonfiction sales. We do pretty well with our nonfiction section [00:19:00] but we certainly saw an uptick in political books after 2016 and then in 2020, we, along with bookstores all over the country, saw a significant increase in books about racial justice, police brutality, et cetera. When crisis strikes, why do you think people turn to literature when people are coming to you for book recommendations or they're really seeking? I mean, I feels like people on your platform are really genuinely asking, what can I do to learn more? Where can you, what sources do you have? Where can you point me? Why do you think in times of crisis literature is what comes to people's minds?

Sharon: [00:19:37] I think it's a few reasons. It's kind of like when it, times of crisis, movies tend to do extremely wel., you know, like during, during world war II, um, the movies, movie sales movie ticket sales have, have gone way up. I think some of it is, um, they're looking for a break, a [00:20:00] mental break from the constant barrage of hate comments that they are reading, experiencing either via, you know, friends, newspaper, whatever it is. I think there's something there's an element of escapism that you find in a book that you don't get from a website where you're then invited to like click around and like, oh, you might like this article and that's going to lead you down this rabbit hole and well, what if I Google it.

You know, for a lot of people, especially people who are struggling with anxiety, which has skyrocketed in the last year or so websites can be even more anxiety producing just because of like breaking news. You might like this article about somebody that you actually love, but here's a hit piece on that, you know, like it just creates more anxiety. So I do think there's that a little bit of an escapist element, but I do think there is a segment of the population, many of them are in my community, who truly want to understand issues more in depth than just an [00:21:00] article can provide them and they also appreciate the scholarship that goes into a well-researched non-fiction book.

You know, like sometimes you look at those, uh, footnote sections and you're like this one node section is a quarter thick. Like I do not have time to do this amount of research. So in some ways I feel like that books could actually be a time-saver in that you, um, you can, you feel like you're more able to trust the scholarship of the author than you are just somebody who has a blog, right. You know what I mean? Um, and you can see how much work went into writing some of these books. So a well-researched book takes a years to write. So I think it's all of those things and it's probably more than that too, but it's, it's a desire to learn more in depth without being screamed at and, um, it's a little bit of an escape.

Annie: [00:21:51] One of our, um, local book clubs read, um, the book, hold on, it's got this great title. Um, You Never Forget Your [00:22:00] First by Alexis Coe and it's this biography of George Washington and part of the reason the book club read it and was drawn to it was because it was you know, smaller than a chair now, biography.

Sharon: [00:22:12] A little more accessable.

Annie: [00:22:14] A little more digestible and we sat in the bookstore, this was our first like post pandemic in store thing and it was a group of probably 12 to 15 women. And the conversation we were able to have around that book, whether or not, and it was, the room was kind of divided, right? Like some people loved the book and kind of liked the tongue and cheek of it and also like learning about it. One woman had already read it twice and then other women were like, oh, I don't know what I thought about this, but the conversations we were able to have around this book, I definitely think you can have those conversations around an article or a blog post, but there is something about sitting with a book letting it kind of ruminate letting it kind of marinate and then kind of [00:23:00] sitting in a room with people and I have always, ever since I've taken over the Bookshelf, I've thought, gosh, the way to have hard conversations is with a book at the center.

Like you can have so much more safe conversations. Maybe it goes back to that safe learning environment you're talking about when there's a book at the center and the things we were able to talk about as a predominantly white Southern group of women, the conversations we were able to have were actually really enlightening and thoughtful because there was a book at the center. I did not feel tense. I mean, I was sweaty leading the discussion, but like, I think everybody else was probably neutral and it was just really lovely to have that conversation around a work of literature, I think.

Sharon: [00:23:43] Well, what you're describing is what they refer to an education as, um, you know, a Socratic seminar and that is where you are having a discussion that is based on, um, a text of some kind.And that, I mean, your husband would be [00:24:00] very familiar with the Socratic method because that's the entirety of law school. Right. Right. I read the Supreme court decision. It might be a hundred pages and then read all of these related ones and then come back tomorrow and we'll discuss, and you better be like, you better walk into that room prepaired because you weren't going to get, as soon as you tiny little hint of weakness, that is when they're going to just keep coming back to you and like pressing that button over and over and over.

Um, so that's, that is a very time honored method of learning and that is, can be a safe learning environment, as long as it is being facilitated by, you know, the right, the right person. But the idea that you are having a discussion based on a text, gives you a scaffolding to be able to talk about those deeper issues, instead of it just being about all your own personal thoughts and feelings, right. When you're talking about it in relationship to a text that you didn't [00:25:00] write, um, that you can always be like, well, you know, my thoughts about when she said this, it's a method of expressing your thoughts and feelings without necessarily, um, feeling as exposed, you know what I mean? Like it, because it relates back to the, you know, the second set, second section of chapter seven, I was really curious about your guys' thoughts on this, on this issue.

Annie: [00:25:23] Slightly less vulnerable. Like you don't, I mean, you're still vulnerable just in having, um, an open, honest conversation with each other, but it is certainly less, maybe less rooted to your personhood and more rooted to the text. Jordan and I, um, Jordan's my husband, he and I both participated in college in a great books program where the entire thing was sitting around a table, asking questions about a text and I, I think often I think so fondly of that time, that's how I love to learn. That's how I love to have a conversation and I even have wondered, I was talking to an author. He was interviewing an author a few weeks ago and she's a former attorney [00:26:00] and we were talking about the rich character she had developed in this book she had written and all of a sudden, while talking to her, it occurred to me.

Gosh, I wonder if writers who are people who are either former attorneys or maybe who practice or studied law are really great at writing these developed complex characters because in law school, or when you study law, you are required to learn an opinion or a thing from every side so that you can argue from every possible angle and that's part of the reason I love having conversations with my husband. It never gets heated. He's, we're very calm about it, but we can approach something from like all these different angles and as I was reading her book, I was like, oh, maybe it is tied up in this work that she has done for years of having to take an issue or a person and, and view it from every possible angle, which is something I don't think we all have practice in, but [00:27:00] it's something that a person who goes to law school has had to practice in.

Sharon: [00:27:03] Right. And, and that frankly is a skill. Nobody, nobody exits their mother's womb, knowing how to do that. Right. You know, like we're developmentally very self-centered as children and it is a practice and a learned skill to be able to do that. And so some people naturally have very analytical minds. They're able to detach from their emotions and be able to look at issues from a variety of angles, without it being upsetting, right. And that's, you know, classic Enneagram three is just being able to take the emotion out of it and be like, right. Here's point a here's point B you know, like I might have an opinion about it, but I'm not going to get upset if your opinion is different than mine.

Right. Um, other people's opinions are very, very interwoven with their emotions and it's difficult for them to tease those out but with practice everyone can get better at it. Everyone can get better at it. And there's a tremendous amount of value in, in that [00:28:00] practice.

Annie: [00:28:00] Yeah. I'm curious and I want you to talk maybe specifically about your Instagram account and the ways this has been true for your, for your kind of following there. `But one of the things I frequently want to make sure, I think learning and reading to learn, reading to understand is crucial and important and to me, that's the first step, but I also personally want to make sure the reading and the learning I'm doing has practical implications.

So does it change the way I have a conversation? Does it change my political opinions? Does it change? Um, my values does it affect my values? And does it bring when necessary, does it bring about change in the real world? And one of the things that I love about your community is their ability to make a positive impact and a positive change on the people around them and so could you talk about that a little bit and how, because I think for some people, some people would think, wait, how does Sharon, how is Sharon, America's government teacher, but also raises millions of dollars [00:29:00] for medical debt? Like, I don't think some people would naturally see a correlation between the two. I think it's there, but I'm curious what you think.

Sharon: [00:29:08] Well, okay. So, um, just in a nutshell, I have, um, I really enjoy using my platform to create positive change in the world and really strongly believe in this idea that creating change is not just something that a few people should do. It's something that we can all work to do, um, even on a daily basis. Uh, and it can be small and that all of us doing something small, actually results in a lot more change than a small handful of us trying to do something big and some people are meant to do really big things. Some people are meant to invent a rocket that flies to the mode.

Other people really are meant to, you know, do something that seems less flashy, but ultimately, um, you know, like what if you're an elementary school teacher and [00:30:00] you end up teaching the student who invents the rocket, you know what I mean? Like your role in teaching them how to read actually created a tremendous amount of, uh, change in the world. So I don't, I really resonate with the idea that we can all work each day to be the change we wish to see in the world, just in small, incremental ways. Um, so I mean, that to me is really the heart of it that.

So much of our frustration with having conversations with people, so much of our frustration with our government, which we all have, by the way, there's nobody who is like, I'm 100% satisfied with this situation. You know, like nobody thinks that we all have, we all have areas where we'd be like, I would like to change the following 500 things. Everyone feels that way, everyone. Um, so much of our frustration is born out of a, um, this notion or this [00:31:00] idea that we have gotten into our minds, that there's nothing we can do about it and, and the research shows that when you feel that despair, when you feel that, like, I just, I'm ready to just throw up my hands in this whole situation. Um, one of the antidotes to despair is taking action. Doing something, do something, even if it's small, even if it is sending a text to a friend, even if it is buying your child flowers, just to say, I love you. Even if it is writing a letter to somebody .Taking action is an antidote to despair.

And so one of the things that I hear from members of my community, when we have done, um, we have raised around $1.7 million at this point, just since December, so in the last six months, we've raised about $1.7 million. Um, one of the things I hear over and over and over again is how much this brings the giver [00:32:00] hope. How much, um, how much joy and peace and hope it brings the giver and they, they know they are not the recipient of the money. This isn't a lottery where they're like, maybe I'll win it. Nope. They know exactly who their money is going to. Um, they know it's not to them and, and it, I really believe that giving is revolutionary to the giver and that it changes us when we become givers and we take action.

So I have just decided that I am going to w you know, that old adage of, to whom much is given much is expected and if I can use my platform for good, then I want to do that as much as I can and sometimes good is making people laugh, sometimes good is arming people with facts, sometimes good is, um, discussing a book, sometimes good is giving away hundreds of thousands of dollars. Good takes on a variety of forms, but that's always the, you know, kind of at the core of my mission is how [00:33:00] can I use this platform for good today?

Annie: [00:33:02] Yeah, I really love and appreciate that because again, in the time in which we were talking to each other, there is a lot of despair. There's a lot of hard, there are a lot of hard things we're all having to deal with and cope with and I, I think back 2020 is by far the hardest year in my entrepreneur entrepreneurship journey that I've ever experienced owning a business in 2020 was exceptionally difficult but as you were talking, I thought, oh gosh, you know, one, um, blessing, I guess for me and Olivia, my manager and I've talked about this is during the pandemic, we were still operating. So our store was close to the public, but, um, my manager and I were still working in like shipping books out to people and I'm wondering if part of the reason I was able to combat the despair I was occasionally feeling in 2020 it was because I was still going to work, packaging up books, doing what I consider to be good, valuable work and were there moments of [00:34:00] anxiety or frustration or despair? Absolutely. But I wonder if part of the reason I was able to keep it at bay was because we were constantly working toward a mission outside of ourselves if that makes sense.

Sharon: [00:34:11] I love that.

Annie: [00:34:12] Okay, so you alluded to this a little bit, but I I'm going to ask it anyway. So you certainly, most of your book recommendations that I follow along with are in the non-fiction realm. You talked about narrative nonfiction, but I am curious if you were drawn in particular to any fiction and the reason I ask is because so often in the work that I do, I find readers fall in one of those two camps, right. They either are drawn to nonfiction, narrative non-fiction, historical nonfiction or fiction, and they feel like never the two shall meet and I of course think that they can and so I'm wondering if you are drawn in particular to any kinds of fiction or if there's a fiction book that stands out to you that maybe made the same impact that in narrative nonfiction book would have?

Sharon: [00:34:54] Mm. So my fiction interest is really just [00:35:00] kind of like on the other side of narrative nonfiction, which is kind of more like historic fiction. You know what I mean, where the author has still had to do an incredible amount of research to portray an accurate depiction of what that time period or that event was like. So I always appreciate writers like, um, Lisa See, who is just in my mind, her books are impeccably researched. They're so transportive where, you know, it's a time period and our region of the world. Like she writes a lot about Asia and, you know, like times in the past, her books to me are like, I would have known none of this if I had not read this book, like zero of this was ever taught to me in school.

I would, I did not even know that. I didn't know this. Yeah. You know what I mean? And that is one of the things I appreciate about appreciated that authors like her so much is that even though [00:36:00] the narrative is fictional, there's so much truth woven into the, the story that I still feel like I learned so much from that story and she's such a masterful storyteller that I absolutely want to just like, I have to find out what happened.

Annie: [00:36:19] I wonder you are constantly putting content into the world. You're working on workshops, you're answering countless questions on Instagram. You're, you're prepping for your new podcast, which I have questions about, but how do you make time to read? And is it a priority for you and how is it a priority for you given your current life season? It feels like, I don't know, but it feels like you're really busy. Well, I'm wondering, wondering how reading fits in there?

Sharon: [00:36:46] I'm getting ready to write a book. So I, um, I would have even more busy, but yes, reading is always priority. It's always been a priority and it's one of those things that, um, I always have multiple books by my [00:37:00] bed. I'm somebody who reads more than one book at a time so that I can have like, whatever I'm in the mood for. You know, um, I don't, I don't always just eat chocolate ice cream. Sometimes I eat, you know, strawberry so it depends on what I'm in the mood for. Um, and so I always have multiple books by my bed to be able to, um, read whatever I'm in the mood for. I will often just by nature, I'm an early riser and so I wake up earlier than everybody else in my family. Like this morning, I woke up, why I woke up at 4:15 I don't know. Normally I wake up to light, you know, 5:45, why I woke up at four 15. I don't know. But I, that just gives me more time to read, you know what I mean? Um, and then on my weekends, whatever, when I'm not as busy, um, doing things like podcasts and that sort of thing, when that kind of has a little bit of a lull, I always like to try to spend a weekday or weekend afternoon reading if I can lost in a good book.

Annie: [00:37:59] Yes. [00:38:00] Yes. Speaking of books, you have launched this kind of summer governor program for people not familiar, that Governors is the term that your community uses to describe themselves. I am a proud member of the summer program as are my two aunts. Um, one is a former educator and she's turning 80 this fall. She is an example of a lifelong learner.

Sharon: [00:38:22] I love it.

Annie: [00:38:23] It is very special to me so

Sharon: [00:38:25] I love it.

Annie: [00:38:26] It's fun to get to do it with them together and we are all so curious why you chose American Sherlock as kind of this book club selection. What made you pick that book? I'm dying to know.

Sharon: [00:38:37] Okay. So again, it's, it spoke to my love of narrative nonfiction. I just love that genre so much. So I knew it was going to be a book that, um, was going to hold my attention and, and I really had to pick from the perspective of, okay, a lot of people in this community love the things that I love and I have to [00:39:00] just be willing to go with that instead of trying to be like, what will everybody else loves? I had to pick, like, this is a book I would love and so consequently, I'm going to hope other people will love it too.

Annie: [00:39:11] Oh, what a great way to word that.

Sharon: [00:39:13] Yes. So I picked to, because it was, I, you know, I read a bunch of reviews about it. It's not recommended by a number of other people. Like these is one of the best non-fiction books of 2020 and, um, I did some research on the author, Kate Winkler Dawson, and she's just, you know, like she's worked on documentary use and she has a very popular podcast and, um, I just, I felt like this person has done years of research on this topic and, and is able to present it in a, in a way that I certainly couldn't do justice to in some little sides on Instagram and then secondly, I also know my community well enough to know that they love to learn and so anything that can be that kind of in that infotainment [00:40:00] space, I know is a very, it's going to be very popular.

They want to learn something and also be like, what? You know, like have that reaction. Anytime I can have that reaction, that to me is a win where I'm like, are you kidding? You know what I mean? Like I really enjoy having that reaction to something. It makes me immediately want to pick up the phone, call my mom and be like, did you know that/ my mom was very used to this. You know, this isn't like my own personal thing that I've always done, that my mom will be like, well, no, I didn't know that, dear.

Thank you and then I will let you know, call friends, call my husband, try to voice these facts on my children and they'll be like, that's nice. Anyway so given, um, given my pension for that. And also because I know so many people in my community of true crime, true, true crime podcasts have obviously, as you know, um, and the true crime genre has actually absolutely exploded. So I knew that it was going [00:41:00] to hit, you know, a variety of those notes of like, if you love true crime, you're going to love this book. If you love narrative nonfiction, you're gonna love this book. If you love history, you're gonna love this book. So it was going to hit, you know, um, it was going to have a broad appeal for people in my community. Yeah, and I think it will. I think people are really going to enjoy it.

Annie: [00:41:18] I'm very excited because it's nice to read a book I haven't read yet and I like, uh, not that I read all the books in the world, but this was one that I had not had not come across my radar. I love when somebody introduces a book to me, it's very exciting so I'm excited to read that one. Okay. I want to talk just briefly about social media in general, because I am just curious as a person. So I, um, I have a love, hate relationship with social media. It is something I utilize for the work that I do. It is a huge part of the way the bookshelf was able to pivot in 2020 and really attract a wide range of customers from all over the country and so I'm super grateful for social media, but I [00:42:00] also am overwhelmed by it and occasionally often disappointed by it. And so I'm curious, how do you cultivate a positive, yet truthful place on the internet? And how do you deal with naysayers or people who devalue your work or just the negative parts of social media life?

Sharon: [00:42:22] Okay. So some of it starts with, what are you taking in that? It is really hard to, um, be a healthy person if you never eat a vegetable, right? And so the same is true on in terms of social media, what you are consuming on social media, uh, impacts what you put out on social media. So I am very careful about what I consume. I continually narrow down the accounts that I'm following. Continually and even if something is just really innocuous, if it's not bringing me joy, I'm not learning something it's not [00:43:00] causing, I'm not feeling like I'm growing from following it. Then I'm not going to waste what little time I have on the internet um, following that account, no, no shade to them. They might be the perfect account for somebody else. Right. But it's just not serving me today here and now maybe it will in five years. I don't know.

So I am very careful about what I am consuming. I purposely don't follow all of the big names that work in my industry. I purposely don't follow all of the, you know, the big political pundits who are on all the major networks all the time. I purposely don't follow them because I'm actually not interested in being told what to think. I'm perfectly capable, more than capable of assessing the situation for my own self. You know what I mean? I have enough education and experience to do that so I'm careful about that.

In terms of people who messaged me, things that are, um, mean or negative. This is, this is a new practice that I have adopted, [00:44:00] which is I will DM them back if I see it, that's assuming I see it because frankly, I get, I get over 10,000 DMS a day. Gosh.

Annie: [00:44:12] I cannot imagine.

Sharon: [00:44:13] 10,000 DMS a day. So that's assuming I see it. Okay. So some of that I've just insulated from, cause I can't read every comment. I'm sure I get bored that I either perceive that I do know what I mean. Um, but when I see it, I will DM them back and say, Hey, Annie. Um, I just want to let you know that, um, this comment violates one of my boundaries, which is that I do not want to be personally insulted on my account so thanks for, thanks for stopping now and then, uh, then that's it and that I, and that's all I say, and I don't go back and like read their replies. I don't go back and engage with them. I am just like, that's my boundary and if it ever [00:45:00] comes back where I w their messages pop up again, and they have said something mean to me again, and I don't mean disagreeing with me.

Right. I can tolerate, I can, I can tell her it polite disagreement all day long. I don't care if you disagree with me, it does not affect me. You know what I mean? Like, go ahead and that's great. I'd rather talk to somebody who, who has a really intelligent position that disagrees with me than somebody who's just like parroting what I'm saying. So it's not disagreement. It's where it crosses that boundary of you're an idiot or you're ugly, or, you know, like whatever it is. Um, then if I see it again, then I, at that point they have shown me that they are not interested in respecting my boundaries. I clearly said there is a boundary here. Like I point blank said, I have a boundary. You know what I mean? Like, I didn't imply it. I didn't infer it. I didn't, I didn't say, you know, something that hopefully they get the idea. It was very clear, very clear, very [00:46:00] clear. There's a boundary here.

If they're, if they've demonstrated them that they are not willing to respect my boundaries, that I will block them. Um, but you know, I think of, I think of my platform a little bit, like being invited to my house. You're welcome to come to my house. I'd love to have a spirited discussion with you, but I'm not going to let you come to my house and, um, kick the lamps over or, you know what I mean? I'm not totally sure. I'm not going to let you come to my house and insult my kids. I'm not going to, like, there are certain behavior that actually I'm not obligated to tolerate. I'm not in any way obligated to tolerate listening to, um, insults about me. That's not, I'm not obligated to do that. So that's, that's my personal stance on that. I'm not interested in arguing. I'm not going to argue with you. I'm just going to tell you where, right?

Annie: [00:46:49] Yeah. Not on the internet. It just feels like a waste of everybody's time. It goes back to that conversation you and I were having at the beginning, like if we know each other and have a relationship and in person, we want to have that [00:47:00] dialogue, but on the internet, I think it's almost impossible.

Sharon: [00:47:03] I agree. Yeah. I wouldn't, I would never say to my friend, your kids are idiots, right? Like I would never say that to a friend. So, you know, like there's, there's automatically boundaries with friendship, right? When you have a friend, there are certain things you don't say to a friend, you don't tell a friend that in fact they're an idiot. You don't tell them that they're they're stupid and fat. But it's not something you say to your friends. So, um, we automatically have those boundaries with, with people we have relationships with, or we should and so to me, I think it's perfectly acceptable because I'm, I am no good to anyone if I am so beaten down that I can not, um, I can't even stand to go on Instagram anymore. You know what I mean? Like that is not going to benefit the world. I'm not gonna able to positively impact anything if I'm like, you know what, screw this [00:48:00] platform. I just can't handle it anymore.

Annie: [00:48:03] Which is, which is occasionally my MO. Like, I go, go, go until I'm like, oh, nevermind. But I appreciate the more measured response and one thing Jordan and I have talked about was one of our favorite things in college was learning about the, um, Aristotle's like theory of friendship and one of the ways like I have really kind of learned to navigate my own social media platforms on the bookshelf for my personal Instagram is realizing, okay, what level of friendship are these people? Um, know Jordan is my friend for the good, like he and I are friends for each other's good. Um, but some of the people I interact with online, they're my friends, but they're friends for utility. I'm providing them with book reviews or I'm providing them with content. Um, and so that level of friendship looks different than my friends for the good and so that has been one way for me to help, to help me kind of navigate, um, the murky waters of the internet.

Sharon: [00:48:58] And, you know, like, like Bernie Brown [00:49:00] talks about that trust is really, um, it's, it's, we all know that trust is earned, but somebody also has to earn that spot of, you know, like treasured valued friend, where I'm going to like share all the things. They have to earn that and that comes with time. Um, people on the internet that you have that you I've never met are not entitled to that amount. They're not entitled to, um, the type of emotional response for me.

Annie: [00:49:31] Okay. I've got three lightning round questions and then I'll have kind of a couple questions to wrap up our discussion but, um, these lightning round questions are questions I ask people who come on the podcast or we do author interviews in the store, stuff like that. So the first question is what is a classic work of literature you've never read, but you wish you had?

Sharon: [00:49:50] Um, I've always wanted to read some of the, um, the great Russian authors. You know, the Dostoyevskys and things like that. I've never sat down to do it [00:50:00] again because it, I have, we all have limitations on our time, but that's always, you know, been on my list of like, they're really should read this.

Annie: [00:50:11] Yeah. Yeah. I read Anna Karenina and then I last year for the first time and we read it one book at a time, like one section at a time and I feel like I did it. I, I confidently, I conquered it. What podcasts do you listen to and love?

Sharon: [00:50:27] Um, you know, w what podcasts, I, this is kind of a silly one, but I never miss an episode of the Office Ladies.

Annie: [00:50:36] Okay. Yeah.

Sharon: [00:50:37] Maybe it's just me.

Annie: [00:50:39] Yeah. It's good. Good fun.

Sharon: [00:50:42] It's like your lighthearted beach read. You know, it's nice to just take a break and be like, you know, it's about the TV show, the office and, um, sometimes it's just fun to be like, oh, Dwight. You know, just to like laugh at the characters that are very beloved to me. So, yeah.

Annie: [00:50:58] Yeah. [00:51:00] What are you reading right now?

Sharon: [00:51:02] I am almost done reading a new book called Empire of Pain.

Annie: [00:51:08] Oh, yes, this is supposed to be excellent. Have you liked it?

Sharon: [00:51:11] It is excellent. Okay. Excellent and, and fits that, uh, you know, if it's my ideal book of narrative non-fiction, um, and the amount of research that the author did again, it has one of those footnote sections that is, um, a quarter of an inch and that really talks about, um, something that I've had very little knowledge on. So, so almost everything is learning something new, which of course my brain really, really enjoys that. You know, like, like every page is like, I have no idea about that. Um,

Annie: [00:51:47] and then you got to call your mom and tell her all about your learning.

Sharon: [00:51:49] Precisely, precisely. That is what my mom exists for, in my opinion. She's so thrilled.

Annie: [00:51:56] Um, okay. Now I want to ask for people [00:52:00] overwhelmed by information, right? We've got computers at our fingertips. We've got websites, we've got newspapers. It's all like right here for the taking maybe and then maybe even I think a different group of people, those who are perhaps distrustful of information, where can they start? What is something they can be doing to access information, even if they're overwhelmed or distrustful?

Sharon: [00:52:23] Hmm. Okay. So one of the things I suggest is for people in that boat and one of those boats and neither, both of those are, it's very common to feel that way, that neither of those things make you an aberration. A lot of people feel either distrustful or overwhelmed. Very common. I always recommend starting with a news organization that doesn't have a TV version that is trying to click bait you into reading and I'm not saying you can't go to the [00:53:00] Fox app or the CNN app. I'm not saying don't do that, but you know, maybe work up to that. You know, like there's a lot more inflammatory rhetoric on things that have TV, TV's. TV stations to support them.

So I always recommend one of two, uh, websites, which are Reuters and the Associated Press and both of those are wire services and what the purpose of them is in journalism is they have networks of reporters all over the world, hundreds and hundreds of reporters. And it's the job of the reporter on the ground to, to report on a story and then they are, you know, uh, sent to Reuters, which is spelled R E U T E R S. If somebody somebodies not familiar and then Reuters, you know, writes the story and then those are sent over the news wire to all of the other news organizations in the world and very frequently when [00:54:00] you're reading a story on, on CNN, or you're reading a story at MSNBC or Newsmax or wherever you like to get your news. That story is often based heavily on reporting from, from Reuters and Associated Press and what the other news organizations have then done is maybe they've rounded out some of the coverage with, you know, making some phone calls on their own.

Maybe they've hyped up the language and made it even sound even more scary, but the Associated Press and Reuters are not there to try and, um, clickbait you. They're trying to provide factual information to all of the news organizations of the world and both of them have been around for over, like, I want to say over a hundred years, Right.

Annie: [00:54:44] The Associated Press has been around for a long, I was a journalism major in college and yeah.

Sharon: [00:54:50] That, yeah. You know, all of that wire service. Um, yeah, the associated press has been around since the 18 hundreds for sure. Yeah. So to me that's [00:55:00] always, uh, a little bit of a safer place to start where it's the less, it feels less like almost like it, less invasive to your brain. You know what I mean?

Annie: [00:55:10] Yeah and allows you to get going back to something you said earlier, like allows you, the person to process the news without being told perhaps what to think about it. Right. Like a lot of the modern, and I think this has to do with the advent of cable news or whatever, but like a lot of, um, even now on major news sites, even sites that I trust, editorials are toward the top now, but if they are at the top, like that's totally changed from what it was even just 20 years ago and so I think when you go to a Reuters or an AP, it's giving you a chance to take in the information. Do with it, what your worldview or your belief system or your value system will, but it gives you a chance rather than, um, even a well-written great opinion piece is telling you what to think.

Sharon: [00:55:55] Right. And sometimes news organizations now they, uh, they [00:56:00] don't make it clear that this is an opinion piece. You have to like is this as an editorial? You're like, I guess it is, but you're absolutely right. That so often those analysis slash editorial slash opinion, or they'll even just say somebody's name where they'll be like Sharon McMann, colon, the world will end tomorrow and that's their way of denoting that this is my opinion and I don't know that that's clear to a lot of

Annie: [00:56:26] people. I don't know that it would be to me, had I not been paying attention, you know, to college or been paying attention.

Sharon: [00:56:34] So then you open the app and the first day you see, as the world will end tomorrow, you know what I mean? And in reality, that's just one person's opinion. So, um, I, yes, I agree with you, but it's nice to just go to websites that are based on, um, factual reporting and that versus being filled with their celebrity analysts. Yes.

Annie: [00:56:55] Yes. Okay and now I just am curious, and maybe you can kind of tell [00:57:00] people where to find you, but I'm very curious about your new podcast and it sounds like a book is in the works. Can you give us some information on those two things?

Sharon: [00:57:07] Still working on the, uh, project, but that is, that is, you know, at least a couple of years away, as you know. There's, um, the publishing moves at a glacial pace, but my podcast will be coming out soon, which is called the Sharon Says So Podcast and, um, it will be available on all the, all the platforms. Um, but it's going to be just a really interesting mixture of interviews with fascinating people and also stories from the history stories from, um, you know, just government, et cetera.

Um, just interesting things that have happened or are happening in the world. And there'll be some of my friends on there. It'll, it'll just, I think it's just going to be a very, very, every time you push play, you're going to be entertained and also educated.

Annie: [00:57:55] Yay. I can't wait. I'm very, I'm very much looking forward to that. Thank you, Sharon. [00:58:00] Thank you so much. This has been such a joy and a privilege. I have loved learning from you the last six months, and I'm just, it's kind of amazing to me that I've gotten to speak with you today so thank you.

Sharon: [00:58:10] Thank you. Thanks for having me

Annie: [00:58:14] From the Front Porch is a weekly podcast production of The Bookshelf, an independent bookstore in South Georgia. You can follow The Bookshelf’s daily happenings on Instagram at @bookshelftville, and all the books from today’s episode can be purchased online through our store website, www.bookshelfthomasville.com.

A full transcript of today’s episode can be found at

www.fromthefrontporchpodcast.com.

Special thanks to Dylan and his team at Studio D Production for sound and editing and for our theme music, which sets the perfect warm and friendly tone for our Thursday conversations.

This week, I’m reading Beautiful World, Where Are You by Sally Rooney.

patreon.com/fromthefrontporch.

We’re so grateful for you, and we look forward to meeting back here next week.