Episode 368 || Backlist Book Club: Beloved
We’re bringing back one of our favorite podcast series, Backlist Book Club! In today’s episode of From the Front Porch, Annie and Hunter Mclendon @shelfbyshelf are discussing the Pulitzer Prize winning novel, Beloved by Toni Morrison.
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Summer I Turned Pretty Book Club
Beloved by Toni Morrison
Pilgrim at Tinker Creek by Annie Dillard
Less by Andrew Sean Greer
This Here Flesh by Cole Arthur Riley
Caul Baby by Morgan Jerkins
The Fifth Season by N. K. Jemisin
From the Front Porch is a weekly podcast production of The Bookshelf, an independent bookstore in South Georgia. You can follow The Bookshelf’s daily happenings on Instagram at @bookshelftville, and all the books from today’s episode can be purchased online through our store website, www.bookshelfthomasville.com.
A full transcript of today’s episode can be found below.
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This week Annie is reading Memphis by Tara M. Stringfellow. Hunter is reading Tracy Flick Can’t Win by Tom Perrotta.
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Transcript:
Annie [00:00:01] Welcome to From the Front Porch, a conversational podcast about books, small business and life in the South.
[00:00:24] “Bit by bit, at 124 and in the Clearing, along with the others, she had claimed herself. Freeing yourself was one thing; claiming ownership of that freed self was another.”
- Toni Morrison, Beloved
[00:00:38] I'm Annie Jones, owner of The Bookshelf, an independent bookstore in beautiful downtown Thomasville, Georgia. And this week, we're bringing back one of our favorite podcast series, Backlist Book Club. In today's episode, Hunter McClinton and I are discussing the Pulitzer Prize winning novel, Beloved by Toni Morrison. Before we get started, I wanted to extend another reminder about our Jenny Horne Summer Book Club. You may remember that Olivia, Lucy and I first gathered over Zoom back in 2020, peak pandemic, to read the Babysitter's Club books. Then, in 2021, we continued our nostalgia reading with YA lit from the 70s, 80s, 90s and early 2000s. And now, this summer, we're kind of wrapping everything up by reading Jenny Han's Summer I Turned Pretty trilogy in advance of its TV adaptation later this year. You can join our summer long book club by purchasing a book bundle of all three books in the trilogy. Just click or tap the link in our show notes. Our virtual meetings begin in May, and Olivia, Lucy and I cannot wait to chat with you. Now back to the show. Hi, Hunter!
Hunter [00:01:38] Hello.
Annie [00:01:40] Oh, it's time for Backlist Book Club.
Hunter [00:01:42] I have been so excited for this. I've missed it.
Annie [00:01:46] I have too. I think you may be approached me about bringing it back last fall, I think, maybe. And do you know when was the last time we did this, pre-pandemic?
Hunter [00:01:57] I think the last backlist book club pick might have been Rebecca.
Annie [00:02:02] Oh, my gosh, that was so long ago.
Hunter [00:02:04] I know.
Annie [00:02:06] I did want your help remembering. So if you are a new listener to From the Front Porch, Backlist Book Club is something Hunter and I did years ago, it feels like. Where we read a backlist title because both of us are drawn to -- although, Hunter, you're kind of living a different reading life this year, but we typically read mostly new releases. And so it was a way to kind of boost our backlist reading. But we also did a series of podcasts called Love It or Loathe It, which I still really love as a concept. Those were two different things, right? Love it or Loathe It and Backlist Book Club. Or did one morph into the other?
Hunter [00:02:38] I'm pretty sure that we started with Love It or Loathe It, but then we could never just like straight out say if we loved or loathed something.
Annie [00:02:47] Which is completely you and me. That's where our Venn diagram meet in the mushy middle where we were like, is or an option? Can we 'or' it ?
Hunter [00:02:56] Right. Which is so funny because, initially, it was us with Rebecca R. Wood, who was the manager at the time.
Annie [00:03:06] That's right.
Hunter [00:03:07] Yeah. And then it was Emily McKenna and who both had no problem, seemingly, with loving or loathing something.
Annie [00:03:13] Yes.
Hunter [00:03:13] And I remember just being shocked every time, like, how can you have such strong feelings one way or the other?
Annie [00:03:19] I only I can count, I think, on two fingers the books that I really loathed. And I think everything else I really did fall pretty much in the middle.
Hunter [00:03:28] Were they Waltz and Perfect Days?
Annie [00:03:30] Waltz was one of them. What was Perfect Days? The other one I was saying it was Rebecca. I loathed Rebecca.
Hunter [00:03:36] Did you?
Annie [00:03:36] I respected Rebecca, but I just don't think I'm a gothic reader and I respect it for what it started. You can see Rebecca's hands on like every work of thriller lit.
Hunter [00:03:51] Oh, because you read The Winters right before.
Annie [00:03:54] Yes, I read The Winter's first like a group and didn't know The Winters was a retelling of Rebecca. I felt so dumb. Oh, I'm so dumb sometimes, it's okay. I think acknowledging when we're dumb is a really important process that we should all engage in.
Hunter [00:04:11] As Beyoncé said in her album Lemonade, we're going to heal.
Annie [00:04:18] Okay. So from Beyoncé to Toni Morrison, this year as part of Backlist Book Club, you and I decided to read Pulitzer winners.
Hunter [00:04:27] Yes.
Annie [00:04:27] And it just so happened that I, in my personal reading life, I'm trying to read through some of Toni Morrison's works. Last year was my Jane Austen year, this year is my Toni Morrison year. So it made sense to kick off this Backlist Book Club with the Pulitzer winning, Beloved. Did you know this before you read the notes? Did you and I decide on these titles together or did I pick them and I'm forcing you?
Hunter [00:04:52] I knew we were doing Pilgrim at Tinker Creek.
Annie [00:04:56] And then we said we're going to be doing Pilgrim at Tinker Creek later this year. And then even later this year, we're going to do Less by Andrew Greer, I believe. So I'm excited about this. So it's like Backlist, but also Pulitzer reading, and that's what we're doing on the podcast this year. So my Toni Morrison reading experience is pretty limited. I read Recitatif earlier this year, the short story, her only short story she ever published and loved it. And now I have finished. Beloved, so two for two on the quarters of the year, which I feel really good about. But my experience then with Toni Morrison is pretty limited. I read excerpts of her work in high school and college, but did not read her works in their entirety. You, though, I feel like have done all of the Toni Morrison works. Am I wrong about that? What is your Toni Morrison history?
Hunter [00:05:47] There's one or two that I have not read. I believe I have not read Home and I have not read A Mercy, but I have read all of the others. But it's funny because I actually heard about Toni Morrison right after high school because of John Green, the YA author.
Annie [00:06:05] Well, thanks, John Green.
Hunter [00:06:07] Yeah, he did a Christmas recommendation thing or whatever for just different types of books for people. And he recommended Sula by Toni Morrison. And he was like, this is a book about friendship. And my best friend was leaving for college and I was staying home and I was like, oh, this is perfect. And then I read Sula, and it's funny because I was thinking about this earlier, I was too young and unable to fully comprehend the beauty and the brilliant construction at work in her book. And then I after that, I read Beloved the first time, but it was not until I went back and read her first book, The Bluest Eye, that I was fully able to understand exactly what she was doing.
Annie [00:06:55] That's so interesting because as I was reading Beloved, I was really disappointed. You and I have talked about this in reading some other classics over the last couple of years, but I was really disappointed that I had not read her work under the instruction of a high school English teacher or a college professor. And yet, I suspect that you're correct that I may not have been able to engage fully with the work as a high school student. So as much as I wish, like, I kept thinking, man, I wish I had read this in high school. I can't believe I didn't read this in high school. Shame on my high school teachers. And I still feel a little bit that way. But at the same time, I'm also like, maybe it's better that I met this as an adult reader, and I have an experience of reading that I did not have in high school, even though I was an avid reader. But you're right, the construction is not always easy, and there are parts that probably high school Annie would have been discouraged by and would have been intimidated by that adult reader annie has a little bit more stamina. Do you know what I mean? I have a little bit more gumption to read it that I might not have had at 16 or 17. And so maybe it's a good thing that I waited. Did you reread this in preparation for our conversation or have you reread it recently?
Hunter [00:08:05] I did reread it for our conversation. I reread part of it and I listened to part of it. Toni Morrison narrates the audiobook.
Annie [00:08:11] Oh, does she? Was it beautiful?
Hunter [00:08:14] It was beautiful, but it was also so beautiful that like -- and I don't mean this in a bad way, but there were times where I would just feel like I had kind of drifted away because it was just so --
Annie [00:08:24] You got lost in it?
Hunter [00:08:25] Yeah.
Annie [00:08:26] Okay. So if people are not familiar, we like to start Backlist Book Clubs with a synopsis. And so, Hunter, I feel like you're really good at this. You want to give a synopsis of Beloved?
Hunter [00:08:39] I can try. Beloved is a novel about a woman named Sethe who escaped from slavery and is now living with her daughter, Denver, in this basically haunted house. And the novel is basically about the way that people with trauma are living in the past and the present simultaneously.
Annie [00:09:06] It was published in 1987. The winner of the Pulitzer, a finalist for the National Book Award. We're going to talk about that later. It's also based -- this was gut wrenching to me and new information because, remember, I'm approaching this as a complete layperson. So this is based on the true story of Margaret Garner, who was a formerly enslaved woman who wound up killing one of her children to prevent them from experiencing slavery. And so you can do some research on Margaret Garner and her real life story, but that is who the character of Sethe is based upon. I'm curious, Hunter, had you seen the film adaptation of this starring Oprah Winfrey?
Hunter [00:09:49] Actually, I watched it a couple months back.
Annie [00:09:52] So because this is my Toni Morrison year, I want to make sure I am not just reading the work, but I'm also engaging with it in other ways. I'm thinking I'm going to watch the movie, but I wondered what your impressions of the film were.
Hunter [00:10:04] It was directed by Jonathan Demme, and I think that he was successful in what he was trying to do. And I actually think that it's a beautifully acted film. I think that Oprah is -- sometimes people dismiss her acting ability. But, to me, her performance in that is one of the best performances I have seen. I think it's one of the best performances of that decade and it is just gorgeous. I think it's a flawed film, but I do think that it was probably the best that they could do to capture the film or to capture the story. Because, I mean, this is a challenging book to adapt.
Annie [00:10:45] Yes, that's what I was saying. That's why I was kind of curious. I'm not just talking about the plot driven scenes that are potentially graphic or traumatic, but I'm also just talking about a lot of the book is about inner work and your inner life, and that is hard to portray in film or on television. And so I was curious how that came across.
Hunter [00:11:09] I do think that it does really as good of a job as it can to to adapt it. I will say, though, this is something that I think that as I was rereading this, I was like, wow, you can really tell that this is a book that was made to be a book, not a book that was written in the hopes of it being adapted into a television show.
Annie [00:11:29] Which we do see a lot now, I think.
Hunter [00:11:31] Yeah.
Annie [00:11:34] When I kind of did some research in preparation for today's episode, one of the things that Toni Morrison said upon receiving, I believe it was an award based on Publishers Weekly or something like that, but she gave this really interesting and thought provoking quote that I'm sure the year was around 1987 or 1988. She said, "There is no suitable memorial or plaque or wreath or wall or park or skyscraper honoring the memory of the human beings forced into slavery and brought to the United States. There's no small bench by the road, and because such a place doesn't exist, the book had to." And the book dedication is to 60 million and more. Which I think is a really beautiful, sparse thought provoking way to kind of introduce the whole novel. You mentioned in your synopsis it's a ghost story, maybe at first glance, but this really is a book about trauma and particularly the trauma of enslavement and what it means to each of these characters.
[00:12:36] And Sethe is the primary character. But we get lots of really interesting characters and kind of how they all are grappling with being formerly enslaved and what that looks like. And so I'm wondering, how do you think Beloved stands as this memorial to the enslaved? Do you think it functions as a memorial? And I've never thought about books functioning as memorials, but I love that concept, and I think I especially love it as somebody who really does love an actual memorial. Jordan and I love -- we're very nerdy. Like, I love visiting historic sites. I love doing research. I love standing at the foot of a statue and reading about why it's there. And yet, as a reader, to hear Toni Morrison describe this book in this way, I thought was really profound and made me look at it a little bit differently.
Hunter [00:13:24] Well, yeah, and I think it's funny because I think a lot about how there was a review of Beloved early on that referred to it as a novel, as a social document in the way that books like Anna Karenina were. It's interesting. I think it is. I think the answer to your question is, yes. But I think that's why this book succeeds so well is because, Toni Morrison, she's not just looking at people problems. She understood the systemic issues and that's being grappled with throughout the novel.
Annie [00:14:11] And it should be noted it's being grappled with throughout the novel in not just a thought provoking way. That's the word that I keep using. That's a phrase that I keep using, but also in a really beautifully wrought way. And so not only does it function, yes, as a memorial, as it sounds like was one of her intents, but it also just functions as a really profound work of literature. Any time I kept thinking it has such deep, crucial themes because I was thinking about this in preparation for a conversation, I was thinking, what are Hunter and I going to talk about? What is Toni Morrison trying to say? But you're also very much enraptured by the story. You're very much wrapped up in the story. So sometimes you read a work of literature and you think, oh, this is of a moment or about a movement or about a historical time period. But this, to me, it definitely does those things, but it also is a really well-told, well-crafted story. I think it's hard to find a book that's both.
Hunter [00:15:14] Yeah. Well, it's so funny because I recently wrote about the first black author to win the National Book Award, Ralph Ellison's The Invisible Man. I was thinking a lot about how a lot of the initial reviews for a lot of work by black authors in the 50s and before, white critics tended to criticize that they were writing in protests in a lot of ways. And the praise for Ralph Ellison's Invisible Man did really acknowledge the fact that it was doing the same thing. He chose to really, like, let the art elevate in a lot of different ways. But I do think that the white gaze was kind of an influence there that that can't be denied. But I think Toni Morrison really was one of the first writers who challenged the establishment enough to saI'm going to create something that is is a is a work of art, but it is also going to be a social and political statement as well."
Annie [00:16:24] Yes. So Sethe is the main character. She lives at this house with her daughter, Denver, and it is, as you said, haunted. It doesn't take a long time, but I think about maybe the halfway point, I think almost exactly the halfway point is when we really understand where the ghost has come from. We really understand who Beloved the ghost is. It's a really starkly drawn scene, but leading up to that, we're kind of are left to wonder who is this ghost? Who is this person? And we come to realize it's Sethe's daughter who she killed trying to prevent -- she tried to kill all of her children, but only succeeded in killing one daughter to prevent her from becoming enslaved. And based on this true story, like we talked about, throughout the book then Beloved looms large. At first, Beloved is kind of this small entity and you can feel her presence in the house. But as the book continues, she grows larger and she becomes more fleshed out and, ultimately, she becomes a pregnant woman. It's how this ghost presents itself.
[00:17:45] But I wondered, especially you've read the book multiple times now. So I did some reading into, of course, how this could be interpreted because I'm not doing this with the help of an English professor. So I'm just reading multiple views, but really boils down to is this a ghost story? Does the reader interpret beloved as a true ghost figure in the life of Sethe? Or is this a figurative ghost, or is it a literal person who shows up? One reviewer I read or one one critic perhaps interpreted it as it's a young African-American woman who doesn't know who her parents are, and Sethe just mistakes her. But she's a literal person. She's not a ghost, she's a literal person, and Sethe simply mistakes her for her daughter. And so I'm curious which way you interpret it. And does it affect the reading? This is going to sound silly, but if you grew up a Christian and you read the Bible and you have to decide, you know, am I going to read this literally? Or am I going to interpret some of these things as figurative or poetry? And does it ultimately affect my belief? Not really. And so I'm curious, does it matter whether beloved is a ghost or a person? How did you interpret this really to be the main character of the story?
Hunter [00:19:09] Well, rereading it, I remember thinking, is she a ghost or is she real? Especially if I'm rereading, you can kind of see that there's arguments that could be made both ways. I mean, there's not a clear enough distinction, and I think that's intentional. But I think that either way, whether or not beloved is actually ghost or not, is almost beside the point because this is a book that is about a haunting of a certain kind, right?
Annie [00:19:40] Yes. And I say Beloved is the main character. She's really not. The story is Sethe's. In some ways, the story is Denver's. I think Denver is just a really interesting character. So if the story does not necessarily belong to beloved, she does loom large throughout the novel. But I, as a first time reader, certainly read this as a ghost story in a way. Like, I definitely read this as a ghost story, but not in the traditional like Shirley Jackson of it all. You know what I mean? Like, that's not the way I'm reading it. I'm reading it as trauma that lives inside your home and that doesn't go away.
Hunter [00:20:21] Which also, you know, I talked a lot about the structure and form of Morrison's work, but I think that what I find so impressive to the point where I'm just envious of the talent really, is that you can tell that this is a person who has a vast knowledge of genre and the form and how it works and is really utilizing it to her strength. I mean, she is just taking all of this and using it to her full advantage.
Annie [00:20:55] Do you know what book number is Beloved?
Hunter [00:21:04] This was her fifth book.
Annie [00:21:06] Fifth book. You could just tell she's a real master of her craft at this point. It'll be interesting for me to maybe go back in and read some others as I'm hoping to do this year. But this one I just kept reading and kept thinking, even towards the end, we get these really striking poetic chapters toward the end where Beloved and Sethe are really fighting for who is going to -- it's almost like who is going to survive. There are these great lines. Like, I am beloved, beloved is me. Or I am beloved, beloved is mine. And those are written so differently from the rest of the book. And yet Morrison somehow makes it completely makes sense. It does not feel disjointed from the rest of the book. I kept reading thinking, gosh, how is it that all of this flows together so beautifully even though there are parts of the book that really do read so differently from others?
Hunter [00:22:06] Well, and that's the thing too. I think a really good way to think about it is that are pop songs, and pop songs have a very specific structure that's all very similar. And I think that a lot of bigotry, it's kind of follows that very similar structure. And then I think about what Kate, who used to work at The Bookstore.
Annie [00:22:29] Kate Stoholf.
Hunter [00:22:31] Yes. She got her Ph.D in Music.
Annie [00:22:36] I think musicology.
Hunter [00:22:38] Musicology. And so the stuff that she would listen to, she would listen to one of the things, you know, instruments, sound, music.
Annie [00:22:45] Orchestras. Jazz. Ensemble pieces.
Hunter [00:22:49] She would listen to these grand pieces. Remember the little women dance scene, that music that's playing?
Annie [00:23:02] Yes.
Hunter [00:23:02] That music is so beautiful, but it's like it takes you on a wild ride.
Annie [00:23:06] Yes.
Hunter [00:23:08] And I think that we have these like pop zombie trees, which are really great and fine. But then we also have Toni Morrison, and her work is like these great symphonies that are truly masterful, right?
Annie [00:23:21] Yes, absolutely. That's a great comparison because there is something to be said for the pop song, right? We all like listening to pop songs, but you can't take away from the complexity of a symphony. And from the real mastery of language, you have to be an author like Toni Morrison. One of the big -- I don't know that it's an overarching theme, but it's certainly a word that comes up a lot, and it's striking because it is not a word. Did Toni Morrison invent this word? Like, it's the concept of rememory and this idea about looking back to the past or ignoring the past or growing from the past. So a few reviews that I read or a few critics that I read were trying to grapple with is this novel graphic? Is it traumatic? What makes it one way or the other? And I will tell you that I knew very little going into this book. I'm not sure I knew anything at all. I really did approach it in the Hunter McClinton way where I was like, I'm not reading anything about this book.
[00:24:24] And so when you realize who Beloved is, and you realize Sethe committed this really violent, gruesome, horrific acts, by all accounts, this horrific act and that act really does come at a climactic moment in the book. Like I said, you kind of learn about it almost to the halfway point. And yet, that violent moment is not the center of the book to me. And so I finished it not really thinking about the violence or the graphic nature of it, but I really left thinking, oh, this is a book about the mind and about memory and about what takes up space in our hearts and in our brains. Like, that's what I left feeling. Although it's objectively, yes, violent, I didn't leave feeling like it was gratuitous. Or because we're going to talk too about the legacy of this book and this book has been banned. It's one of the most banned books, I think, over the last several decades. And, anyway, and it's banned for multiple reasons, but one of them is for graphic violence. And I just finished it thinking, yes, it is violent. Would my very sensitive mom like to read this? No, I'm not sure that she would. And yet I didn't leave feeling weighed down by the weight of that violent act. I really left thinking, like you said, this is about a haunting of a different kind.
Hunter [00:25:58] Yeah. Well, and also I think I remember the first time I read it, I kind of missed what happened because it's really buried in the language. Toni Morrison said that she felt like she had to do that. It's like the way that it's written it's almost like it's it really does take you a minute to kind of process it all.
Annie [00:26:21] Yeah. It's not the kind of books we are used to reading or I am used to reading, right? Like, I feel like a lot of literature, modern literature -- for better or worse, I'm not saying there's anything wrong with it, but it is very much kind of spelled out for you. And as you and I have read some classics over the last couple years, there are some things that are so subtle that it takes me multiple readings to even understand what just happened. And this is certainly one of those things where it is a violent act, but it takes you a minute to understand. I even think I was reading it today and then all of a sudden I was like, oh, gosh. Like, I don't think I fully comprehended what I was reading because it is so subtle.
Hunter [00:27:01] Yeah. It's something that I just can't stop thinking about. I can't stop thinking about how she does it. And, also, it's so interesting too because I keep thinking about how that act and all of the other events, going back to just the structure of the book, you know, it's so brilliant how she's changing tenses and she's changing perspectives and the shape of the novel informs the way we engage with it. And the past and the present timelines are constantly recontextualizing each other and making us reconsider everything we know.
Annie [00:27:32] Yes, which also then begs the question I think whose story is it? Because the first part of the novel to me is very much baby Sethe's story. That is the character that I immediately was drawn to. She's the character I immediately fell in love with. I fell in love with her sermons in the clearing. Like, I loved her as a character. The middle part feels like a fight between Sethe and Beloved. But then by the end, I finished it and thought, well, I think that was Denver's story. I think that was Denver's. So I'm curious what you think.
Hunter [00:28:05] What I find really interesting is it's funny you say that because I agree. But what it makes me think about is how there's this focus on generations, right? And I think that Sethe is a really great example of how sometimes trauma can be so deeply embedded into your person that you truly -- I once was talking about A Little Life and a lot of people argued with me about the character of Jude. Everyone is in his orbit, and no one can kind of grow in a way either forward or back, you know? And I said it's because when you're in this orbit of trauma, you truly just cannot grow. You cannot move past that trauma at a certain point. And I think that Denver has to move on. And it kind of feels almost like symbolic of her being this generation who is trying their best to move past or move on in some way.
Annie [00:29:15] She's in a very different position than her mother ever was. And it's really to Sethe's credit that Denver can do that. It's almost like Sethe is bearing the weight so Denver doesn't have to. And it's not fully true, right? I mean, Denver has her own burden to bear. But Denver's actions are so different from her mother's and I think that's partly because Sethe is fighting that ghost for Denver.
Hunter [00:29:44] Well, and that's the thing too. I think a lot about the ways that people, especially children of parents who come from trauma and how -- you see it a lot on Twitter where people are like, well, if I had gone through this, then I would have done this differently. But you weren't there to experience that. So you don't really have the full context to understand what you would have done.
Annie [00:30:09] I think this is a credit to Toni Morrison. Like, I didn't even finish the book mad at Sethe. Like, you're not mad. You really think, well, what else was Sethe supposed to do? In fact, I think it's a credit that by the end of the book, Sethe has a person she's willing to kind of get in her brain who can tell her Beloved isn't the best part of you. Beloved isn't the most important part of you, you're the most important part of you. Which I thought was just a really lovely way to close almost Sethe's trauma cycle. It felt like to have somebody look at her and tell her, "No, you're the best part of you. Yourself is the best part of you. You lived and you survived. And here's what resilience looks like." I think this act of rememory is both necessary and -- it's necessary, but it also retraumatizes you, right?
Hunter [00:31:10] Yes.
Annie [00:31:11] And I think that plays a part in her character development.
Hunter [00:31:15] And it's so funny that you said that about it because I remember both of the first time I read it and this time, I know that there are people in the book who truly, rightfully, question, you know, how could you commit such an act? But I never questioned it because I did understand. I mean, I'm not saying that it's the right or wrong decision, but I think that when you have a choice between you're hoping that your child could somehow escape or knowing for sure that they'll never have to live through the trauma that you lived through, you're going to choose. And the thing is that when you said that Sethe truly is kind of holding things down in a way for Denver to kind of move forward, like, that's true to her character. Because that's basically what she was doing everything she could to stop her children from having to suffer.
Annie [00:32:15] It's incredibly maternal. The book very much is about motherhood in all of its forms. One of the most oddly touching scenes to me is toward the end of the book Beloved has kind of overtaken the house, and Denver goes and begs the black community who they are living kind of removed from because their house is kind of notoriously this haunted house. And so Denver takes it upon herself to visit some members of the black community, particularly one of my favorite characters Stamp Paid and she kind of begs for help. I can't wait to watch it unfold on screen because there is this one rather cinematic moment in the book where Toni Morrison writes about all the black women coming and like meeting up on the road and all coming together to exorcize the house and to exorcize the home. And it really is a bookend to me, to a moment at the beginning of the novel where Baby Suggs is having, like an outdoor church service. And All the women are crying and dancing together. And so this is very much a book about maternal instinct and about, I think, black community. And two scenes in particular, and I love how one starts the novel and one kind of ends the novel. It's a matriarchal story.
Hunter [00:33:42] It is, yeah.Well, yeah. You've put it in the notes about how this is a book that does not prioritize the male gaze.
Annie [00:33:52] Yes. Or the white gaze. Like, you know, for all that I love and espouse about to kill a Mockingbird, right? That book is a white book. The book is a white story about, in part, black trauma. This is a book where the black voices are centered and the white characters barely grazed the page. You get a brief glimpse of this character named Amy, who may be redeemed. Little women's Amy for me, I'm not sure. But you get this character named Amy and then you get the plantation owning family of Sweet Home, believe in Kentucky, schoolteacher who's just a obviously horrific, villainous character. But this story is not about the white gaze or white people or white voices, and it's really not about male voices either. Like I said, we get Stamp Paid. We get like a group of Paul's, which I really loved that group of characters, but they're certainly minor. And even Sethe's husbands -- how is it pronounced in the audiobook? Is it Halle?
Hunter [00:35:03] Yes.
Annie [00:35:04] So you get Holly. But Contrasting Halle and Sethe is, I think, pretty interesting because Sethe does survive her trauma. Now, her trauma has impacted her and has eaten her up and has taken hold of her house. But Holly doesn't. My understanding is, and it is quite subtle, I really did have to figure out what happened to her. In fact, I think my original notes to you were, like, what happened to him? I never could figure out. And then I did some reading and you find out that he succumbs to madness because the trauma is too much. He's witnessed such violence against his wife and against his family and he cannot take it. And that broke my heart because he's such a strong character. He bought his mother out of slavery, but the trauma comes for him too. And I I think that's an interesting contrast as well. But the story is not Halle's. The story is Sethe's and Baby Sugg's and Denver's and Beloved's. It does not belong to the men in this story.
Hunter [00:36:06] Yeah. And I just keep thinking about the writing. Like, this is truly is one of the best written books I think.
Annie [00:36:15] I can't believe. I'm so mad I never read it. Like, I just I'm grateful. I'm very grateful that I came to it when I came to it. But I am a little mad that for some reason or another, and perhaps it is the white spaces I inhabit, but this was not a book that was put in my hands. It wasn't. It just was not put in my hands. And I read it now, and I think, well, this should be one of the great American novels, shouldn't it?
Hunter [00:36:42] Yeah. I really do think it is, but I think it's one of those that often gets overlooked. I actually read a really terrible review of this. It was it was talking about this stuff, but also it was a recent review and it was also referencing the Underground Railroad. And it was talking about the 'slave narrative'. And I thought to myself, one, I don't think of either of them as that at all.
Annie [00:37:20] No, I certainly would not. I honestly wouldn't qualify either one, but I really wouldn't qualify this as that at all.
Hunter [00:37:25] No. And so I thought that was such a weird description, because even then, I think that we have this idea of what that looks like. But I think what we're seeing is, we're seeing black authors write historical novels that take place in their history.
Annie [00:37:47] Owning that history and telling it themselves.
Hunter [00:37:52] And that's the thing, right? Yeah, and prioritizing the actual stories and not doing what other stories have done about like of putting -- even this book that is about trauma in a lot of ways, it's not about trauma in the way that white people have written black characters to be traumatized. Yeah, this is doing something different. And I think that, Toni Morrison, she does such a beautiful job just in general, and you'll see more too when you read. I think that she inhabits a history in a way that just really was so necessary to the literary canon. And it's so influential. I don't understand why she won the Nobel Prize because I do not think that our landscape of literature would look the same without her today.
Annie [00:38:41] Speaking of the literary landscape, one of the things you are doing this year is reading your way through the National Book Award finalists. And, obviously, I knew this was a Pulitzer winner, but I was stunned and yet not so stunned to see that this book was a National Book Award finalist in 1987, but it was not the winner. And then I went and I was like, well, who was the winner? And I looked it up. I'm so sorry, the name has already --.
Hunter [00:39:05] Coco's story.
Annie [00:39:07] That's right. Which is, if I'm not mistaken, a Vietnam war story. Is that right?
Hunter [00:39:11] Yes.
Annie [00:39:13] And I cannot wait to hear you kind of deep dive this year in the National Book Award history. But I wondered, you have discussed a little bit in your in your newsletters that you've been writing the Pulitzer versus the National Book Award and what the definitions of the two are. Can you go into that a little bit?
Hunter [00:39:31] Yeah. So the National Book Award is strictly looking for the best books written by American authors each year, but there's no preference for genre or for subject matter as long as it is well written. Whereas, the Pulitzer is about the best.They're basically looking for the great American novel. That was the original definition. It has since formed into books dealing with American life. So it's actually really interesting, though, because Toni Morrison was only a finalist for two books. One was Sule and the other was Beloved. And after she lost the National Book Award for Beloved, I mean, it was kind of like a big deal because everyone just thought she's so deserving for it, obviously. And then there was actually an open letter that was written by over 40 black critics and writers that were saying like, hey, she deserves acknowledgment. And then when she did win the Pulitzer, she actually said at New York Times interview that she had no doubt about the value of the book and that it was really worth serious recognition.
[00:40:41] But I had some dark thoughts about whether the book's merits would be allowed to be the only consideration of the Pulitzer committee. The book had begun to take on a responsibility, an extra literary responsibility that it was never designed for. I think initially in the first two decade, two or three decades of the National Book Award, they did pick some challenging reads that the Pulitzer Committee tended to skew towards the establishment. So they always picked like these writers who are already renowned. But I don't know. There's a lot of complicated history there. And I do think it's sad, but also it's funny because a lot of Nobel Prize winners never won the National Book Award, but they did win the Pulitzer.
Annie [00:41:24] That is so interesting to me because based on the criteria you're describing, I mean, obviously, I would argue that she was deserving and her work was deserving of both the Pulitzer and the National Book Award. But it seems so very obvious that it would be a National Book Award winner to me.
Hunter [00:41:41] I completely agree.
Annie [00:41:42] Just because, as I said to you not five minutes ago, it feels like the great American novel to me. And it's interesting that Toni Morrison references the way the book was forced to bear, which I think you and I kind of talked about at the beginning because it's dealing with these systemic issues. But at its heart, it's also just a really well-written story and it somehow does both of these things. But as a result, perhaps she was right, had to bear the weight that it was never really intended to have to bear.
Hunter [00:42:12] Well, yeah. I think that when she says that, I think it more so probably means she probably -- I can't speak for her, but it seemed to me that she probably meant more along the lines of the new weight. Was that it was going to be used as an educational device for white people. You know what I mean? Versus what you talked about earlier with it really being for black readers.
Annie [00:42:39] Yeah. So I'm curious, you and I do a lot of -- part of the reason we do Backlist Book Club is because you and I do a lot of modern new release reading. And in even past issues when we did something like Rebecca, you can see Immediately. Like, I immediately thought, oh, my gosh, I've read things recently that now I see were very much inspired to or paying homage to Toni Morrison and Beloved. So the two I wanted to mention are, This Here Flesh, which is a beautiful work of nonfiction and Caul Baby. Did you read that book?
Hunter [00:43:18] I did. Yeah.
Annie [00:43:19] Yeah. To me, the writing very much reminds me because it kind of grapples just like Beloved grapples with this ghost story element, Caul Baby has this kind of magical, almost magical realism kind of element. So those two books were the ones that immediately came to mind for me. What about for you?
Hunter [00:43:37] The book that really came to mind immediately was actually The Fifth Season by N. K. Jemisin, which is a fantasy type book. It's part of a trilogy which is very outset of my usual read. But there is an act of violence against the child for their own protection. And there is a lot of really interesting -- the way that it's navigating discussions around identity and specifically race, but just studied in a very different way because of the world. But I could see so much of that in even the writing. I can see her influence so heavily from especially Beloved in this.
Annie [00:44:22] I wanted to mention sort of resource, so I'm going to be continuing to read Toni Morrison's works. I think unless you have an expert opinion, I am kind of drawn to the story of Sula and that's the one I'm tempted to read next. But do you have do you have a recommendation for what I should follow this up with?
Hunter [00:44:44] Let me think. Okay, I do love Sula. I will tell you now my personal favorite is Song of Solomon. . I think that Song of Solomon and The Bluest Eye, I think, they are the most accessible reads. I will also just tell you I want to thank God Help the Child is accessible. I would tell everyone who's listening, Paradise I found it very difficult. I need help with that one.
Annie [00:45:14] I was going to say I don't even think I bought that one. At the beginning of the year, I bought four books from a bookstore in Auburn, Alabama, and Beloved was one, Sula was one, was Jazz one? And Song of Solomon was one. I think those were the four I bought. Though, I'm open because I read Recitatif and that one I hadn't even originally intended to read, so I'm so glad I did. But I did want to mention there's an Instagram account called Books with Raia. And she has this great infographic. She posted it not too long ago, so you should be able to find it. But it's this great infographic about Toni Morrison, and she kind of tells which one to read if you're looking for a certain type of book. And so I found that to be helpful. And so I wanted to point out that Instagram accounts because I found that to be helpful in my own kind of planning out of my Toni Morrison year. Okay, Hunter, any final thoughts on Beloved?
Hunter [00:46:09] Just that it's good, you!
Annie [00:46:13] I do think it is. So if you are reticent, maybe because maybe you're my mom and you're a sensitive reader, I do think this is obviously dealing with some really intense, tough subject matter. But if you're not a sensitive reader and you're like me and you just had never encountered Toni Morrison's works before, I do think this is a fine starting point. There were parts of it where the language is, perhaps, as Hunter put it, like not quite as accessible. But I think if you're somebody who spends a lot of your time with books, you're completely capable of kind of embracing the language and and getting lost in the beauty that is this book. I really highly recommend it. If we were doing Love it or Loathe it, this would be a love.
Hunter [00:46:56] Okay.
Annie [00:46:56] This week, what I am reading is brought to you by the 101st Annual Rose Show and Festival here in Thomasville, Georgia. Once the calendar flips to April, we know that we have a lot going on in downtown Thomasville. Already this month, we have celebrated First Friday. We have been down at Cascades Park in nearby Tallahassee for the Word of South Literary Festival, and we have celebrated Due South, a music festival here in our own community. So April is the perfect time to come visit Thomasville for whatever celebration that you see on your calendar, whether it is Rose Show or Indie Bookstore Day. There really is kind of something for everybody leading up to the events of Rose Show and Festival.
[00:47:42] Several of our favorite restaurants are already planning their special menus and their commemorative drinks for the festival. And I have already seen a preview of some of our own events going on in the downtown area for Rose Show. So if you missed First Friday or if you missed Word of South or Due South, never fear. You have time to plan your Rose Show vacation. There are lots of hotels and Airbnbs that still have room, and I would love to see you at Rose Show. That is April 23rd in beautiful downtown Thomasville, Georgia.
[00:48:15] This week, I'm reading Memphis by Tara M. Stringfellow. Hunter, what are you reading?
Hunter [00:48:20] I'm reading. Tracy Flick Can't Win by Tom Perrotta.
Annie [00:48:24] Thank you, Hunter, for joining us on today's episode. And thank you again to our sponsor, the 101st annual Rose Show and festival here in Thomasville, Georgia. If you want to come for the weekend and experience the flowers, fun, food and shopping in beautiful Thomasville, plan your visit at ThomasvilleGA.com
[00:48:41] From the Front Porch is a weekly podcast production of The Bookshelf, an independent bookstore in Thomasville, Georgia. You can follow The Bookshelf daily happenings on Instagram @Bookshelftville. And all the books from today's episode can be purchased online through our store website: Bookshelfthomasville.com.
[00:49:01] A full transcript of today's episode can be found at: Fromthefrontporchpodcast.com.
[00:49:07] Special thanks to Studio D Podcast Production for production of From the Front Porch and for our theme music which sets the perfect, warm and friendly tone for our Thursday conversations.
[00:49:16] Our executive producers of today's episode are, Dana Hechler, Angie Erickson, Cami Tidwell, Chantal Karl.
Executive Producers (Read their own names) [00:49:23] Nichole Marcy, Wendy Jenkins, Laurie Johnson, Kate Johnston Tucker.
[00:49:29] Thank you all for your support of From the Front Porch. If you'd like to support From the Front Porch, please leave a review on Apple Podcasts. Your input helps us make the show even better and reach new listeners. All you have to do is open up the podcast app on your phone, look for From the Front Porch, scroll down until you see 'Write a Review' and tell us what you think.
[00:49:47] Or, if you're so inclined, you can support us over on Patreon, where we have three levels of support. Front porch friends, Book club companions and Bookshelf benefactors. Each level has an amazing number of benefits like bonus content, access to life events, discounts and giveaways. Just go to Patreon.com/fromthefrontporch. We're so grateful for you and we look forward to meeting back here next week.