Episode 377 || Backlist Book Club: Pilgrim at Tinker Creek
It’s time for another installment of Backlist Book Club! This week on From the Front Porch, Annie and Hunter Mclendon (@shelfbyshelf) are talking about Pilgrim at Tinker Creek by Annie Dillard.
To purchase the books mentioned in this episode, visit our new website:
Pilgrim at Tinker Creek by Annie Dillard
Beloved by Toni Morrison
A Circle of Quiet by Margaret L'Engle
The Creation by E.O. Wilson (not available through us, check your local library)
Ecology of a Cracker Childhood by Janisse Ray
Wild Spectacle by Janisse Ray
Graceland, At Last by Margaret Renkl
Late Migrations by Margaret Renkl
I Have Been Assigned the Single Bird by Susan Cerulean
Less by Andrew Sean Greer
A Portrait of The Scientist as a Young Woman by Lindy Elkins-Tanton
From the Front Porch is a weekly podcast production of The Bookshelf, an independent bookstore in South Georgia. You can follow The Bookshelf’s daily happenings on Instagram at @bookshelftville, and all the books from today’s episode can be purchased online through our store website, www.bookshelfthomasville.com.
A full transcript of today’s episode can be found below.
Special thanks to Dylan and his team at Studio D Podcast Production for sound and editing and for our theme music, which sets the perfect warm and friendly tone for our Thursday conversations.
This week Annie is reading Flying Solo by Linda Holmes. Hunter is reading Oh, William! by Elizabeth Strout.
If you liked what you heard in today’s episode, tell us by leaving a review on iTunes. Or, if you’re so inclined, support us on Patreon, where you can hear our staff’s weekly New Release Tuesday conversations, read full book reviews in our monthly Shelf Life newsletter and follow along as Hunter and I conquer a classic. Just go to patreon.com/fromthefrontporch.
We’re so grateful for you, and we look forward to meeting back here next week.
Our Executive Producers are... Donna Hetchler, Angie Erickson, Cammy Tidwell, Chantalle C, Nicole Marsee, Wendi Jenkins, Laurie johnson, and Kate Johnston Tucker.
Libro.FM:
Libro.fm lets you purchase audiobooks directly from your favorite local bookstore (Like The Bookshelf). You can pick from more than 215,000 audiobooks, and you'll get the same audiobooks at the same price as the largest audiobook company out there (you know the name). But you’ll be part of a different story -- one that supports community. All you need is a smart phone and the free Libro.fm app.
Right now, if you sign up for a new membership, you will get 2 audiobooks for the price of one. All you have to do is enter FRONTPORCH at checkout or follow this link:
Flodesk:
Do you receive a weekly or monthly newsletter from one of your favorite brands? Like maybe From the Front Porch (Or The Bookshelf)... Did you ever wonder, ‘how do they make such gorgeous emails?’
Flodesk is an email marketing service provider that's built for creators, by creators, and it’s easy to use. We’ve been using it for a couple of years now, and I personally love it. And right now you can get 50% off your Flodesk subscription by going to:
Transcript:
Annie Jones [00:00:01] Welcome to From the Front Porch, a conversational podcast about books, small business and life in the South.
[00:00:24] "It has always been a happy thought to me that the creek runs on all night, new every minute. Whether I wish it or know it or care, as a closed book on a shelf continues to whisper to itself its own inexhaustible tale." Annie Dillard. Pilgrim at Tinker Creek.
[00:00:42] I'm Annie Jones, owner of the Bookshelf, an independent bookstore in beautiful downtown Thomasville, Georgia. And this week, we're hosting our quarterly Backlist Book Club. In today's episode, Hunter McClinton and I are discussing another Pulitzer Prize winner, Pilgrim at Tinker Creek by Annie Dillard. As a reminder, if you've ever wondered what the bookshelf actually looks like, you can follow us over on Instagram @Bookshelftville. We post a lot of behind the scenes pictures, give updates on shop events and offer book recommendations. Plus, we'll keep you up to date on all the podcast episodes so you can read along with us. Follow us on Instagram @Bookshelftville to put faces with names. And so you can see the business behind the show. Now, back to today's conversation. Hi, Hunter.
Hunter McClinton [00:01:26] Hello.
Annie Jones [00:01:27] Welcome back.
Hunter McClinton [00:01:28] It's good to be back.
Annie Jones [00:01:29] Can I tell you I should have planned this better because it is Pride Month, in fact. And the next backlist book clip we're going to read is Less by Andrew Sean Greer. And I felt so dumb.
Hunter McClinton [00:01:43] Aah!
Annie Jones [00:01:44] Wow. What a missed opportunity. I feel like I owe the public an apology, and you.
Hunter McClinton [00:01:51] I will say this, this is something that I think is actually the reason why I don't think it's a problem is because you're constantly reading all types of stories all year long.
Annie Jones [00:02:02] I hope so. That's the goal.
Hunter McClinton [00:02:03] I think it gets kind of messy when you're like, this month I will only be reading this and then, like, you drop it off the rest of the month.
Annie Jones [00:02:10] Yeah. The rest 11 months of the year. Okay, well, good. That makes you feel a little bit better, because when I sat down, I was like, oh, how exciting we read Less next time. And then I thought, well, Annie, you could have really themed this out a little better, but I didn't, so... And for the record, I also feel like this book, Pilgrim at Tinker Creek, starts in the winter. And so I was like, ooh! But that's fine. We'll get to it. So welcome back to Backlist Book Club. This is a project we started several years ago, it feels like, for From the Front Porch. We brought it back this year and we're reading Pulitzer Prize winning works and we read Beloved earlier this year. We're reading Pilgrim at Tinker Creek this month. And then I believe in August, I have on the calendar for us to discuss less by Andrew Sean Greer. So I want to talk about Annie Dillard and Pilgrim. Had you read this before? I feel like, of course you had. But tell me your personal history with Annie Dillard, with Pilgrim at Tinker Creek. Tell me all about it.
Hunter McClinton [00:03:08] So I had actually not read this one. This was one of those that I had wanted to read for a long time. I had read her book, I think it's called The Writing Life. And I have read that book many, many, times because I just thought it was so brilliant. And and just so moving for a book that's about writing, it's one of those craft books where you're like, oh, my goodness, this is clearly a genius who somehow is making me cry over just the very art of putting pen to page. And so I love that. And then a couple of years, I think in 2018, I read Alexander Chee's essay collection, How to Write an Autobiographical Novel, and he studied under Annie Dillard and he has this really lovely essay, which you need to read. [Crosstalk]
Annie Jones [00:03:58] Well, the point is deserved because I still haven't read -- I want to, like, hide my face in my shirt. I still haven't read Alexander Chee. I feel like I need to fix that. I'm so sorry.
Hunter McClinton [00:04:09] It's okay. Which, again, because Tyler is reading Edinburgh right now.
Annie Jones [00:04:12] I saw that. And that's why I was like, okay, Tyler, I need to get on this.
Hunter McClinton [00:04:16] No, I think, I will tell everyone now go read Alexander Chee. I think that actually you were wanting to read Pilgrim at Tinker Creek with us, I think that reading his essay about studying under her is a really great kind of companion piece.
Annie Jones [00:04:31] Can I find that online? Like, should I link it in the show notes?
Hunter McClinton [00:04:34] Yeah, you can.
Annie Jones [00:04:34] I'll do that.
Hunter McClinton [00:04:36] And so basically the way he wrote about her made me fall even more deeply in love with her as a writer and a person. And I honestly, I think you know this, I don't know what any book is ever about before I start it. And so that was a big shock when I was reading this one because I went into it and I was like, oh, I wonder what... I was like, is it going to be about a pilgrim? Is it going to be about like a memoir of hers. And this book is definitely nothing -- I think, if you just did not know anything about it, I think you would be very surprised about what it is.
Annie Jones [00:05:11] So I was familiar, obviously, with Annie Dillard, but I will be very honest, obviously, you are my friend and I will tell you that I had never read anything by her in its entirety. So Pilgrim at Tinker Creek is something I distinctly remember reading excerpts of in high school. I feel like it was included in anthologies that I read for school, whether it was late high school or early college. And I remember loving those. And I certainly have read excerpts of Annie Dillard here or there throughout my adult life, but I'd never read them to completion. And so as much as I love and appreciate my English teachers for highschool and college and for the works that I got to read snippets of, I'm also a little frustrated that it has taken me well into adulthood to read these works in their entirety. And I know that's because time is limited and blah, blah, blah. But so I picked this one up knowing I did know what it was about. Well, what I knew was that it was nature writing and it was a year in the life kind of thing. And so I went in knowing that, but it really is so much more than that, although it is a little difficult to describe. And so I hope we'll kind of get to talk about that. Why don't you give us kind of a synopsis and then we'll get into our discussion questions.
Hunter McClinton [00:06:32] This is a hard one to kind of like summarize because, like you said, it is a year of -- but it's really just a exploration of the world. It's philosophical. It's nature writing. It's all of the thing. It's like thinking about all the big picture stuff in this woman's life at this certain point. And I guess that it really separates her life so wholly from her lived life from, like, the observed life. And so I think it's the observed life and really pushing everything else away to ask the big questions. Which I will also just say as a side note, she not only does this like in the writing, but also structurally every thing was lending itself to what she's trying to do.
Annie Jones [00:07:25] You almost don't realize it until you, at least in my addition, get to the author's note at the end and then you're like, oh, I see. Like, oh, I get it. Because you're right. I love that observed life rather than re-lived life. We're going to talk a little bit about that. Because this book, I think -- I was going to say, does it say on here? But I guess it really doesn't. I felt like I knew this was nature writing, but I thought for sure it was 'memoir'. Like, I just felt like, oh, that's where I would shelve it at the Bookshelf. Like, it's a memoir. And upon reading it, honestly, is it a memoir? To me, it is more about her observations of the world and choosing to go, oh, super micro-level, like microscopic detail on bugs and parasites and frogs. And then somehow also macro level, who is God? Like, where does all this come from? What does it all mean? What role do I play in it? But you get very little about Annie Dillard.
Hunter McClinton [00:08:32] Yeah. To me, this feels like if you ask your smartest friend, like, what do you think about big ideas? I feel like if they were at the height of their genius, might come close to this. I don't know. It's so hard to describe just how -- I mean, it's literally every big question, every big idea that you've ever tried to grapple with. She does that in a way that you're like, how?
Annie Jones [00:09:05] Absolutely. That's how I felt as well. So I do want your perspective. I thought we could kind of start here because you're reading through -- as we've discussed, you're doing this great reading project about reading through the National Book Award longlist, and so you're kind of plotting your way through those. I'm curious, this is a Pulitzer winner, obviously. That's what we're reading this year. I am so intrigued that it was the Pulitzer in, I believe, 74-ish?
Hunter McClinton [00:09:28] Seventy five.
Annie Jones [00:09:30] Seventy five. Okay. Was this an outlier in terms of other winners? Was this a winner? You're reading the National Book Award and you're kind of frequently commenting on what was appropriate or expected of that time. I'm curious about this one.
Hunter McClinton [00:09:45] So actually in the mid to late seventies and early eighties, the Pulitzer nonfiction books were actually a lot about nature and about [Crosstalk] Yeah, I think that maybe in the sixties there was a lot more social , like --
Annie Jones [00:10:06] Maybe some climate activism, almost, like for -- I don't know.
Hunter McClinton [00:10:14] So the civil rights movement started in '58, right? Around that.
Annie Jones [00:10:18] I would think the mid to late fifties. Yeah.
Hunter McClinton [00:10:20] Yeah. Maybe it was '54, I lied. I don't know my history. It's okay.
Annie Jones [00:10:30] [Crosstalk]
Hunter McClinton [00:10:31] Listen, I would also say researching so much for these newsletters, like, there's so many historical events and I'm like, what year did that start? Like, you learn so much that then you can't keep your date straight. But no, it was in '54. Yes. And so you start to see in the fifties, it's around 1957, 1958, where you start to see the reflection of the world's events of the civil rights movement, trickle into the writing.
Annie Jones [00:10:55] Into literature because they're writing it. It takes a while to get things published. Yeah.
Hunter McClinton [00:11:00] Right. And so that's what I meant because it happens with the National Book Award, even in fiction, where you start to see this trickling effect happening. Like, I think that we're always influx. And so we have these moments where we have this urgency to write about what's going on with humanity. And we see a lot of that with topics about racism and homophobia, transphobia, all these things. And so you see a lot of that in the fifties and sixties. But then in the seventies into the eighties, it's almost like we thought like, oh, we can put a box on that and really focus on -- and I don't think there's anything wrong with highlighting any types of books, but I just think it's interesting. But, yeah, basically we started to see a lot more nature writing at that point in time. Although, so little of it actually writes about it doesn't really feel like it's addressing kind of the crumbling of the world in a way that I would expect it to.
Annie Jones [00:11:54] So when I finished it, I mean, I found it to be beautiful. Spoiler alert, I will say approximately one third or halfway, maybe one third, one third of the way through the book, I had a moment where I thought, how in the world will I be able to publicly give Pilgrim at Tinker Creek four stars? Because John Green has this whole thing about writing things and I thought, man, I'm going to look so stupid. But that was how I was feeling. ond then by the end I was stunned and I was like, Oh, good, five stars. Five stars. This book is amazing. But I do think this feels different for a Pulitzer. But that is also because I am not doing a project like you are doing. Like I don't particularly always pay attention to award winning lit. I think I certainly have since owning the bookstore, but I don't know that I necessarily did before that. And so I finished it and thought, gosh, what else around this time-- like, was this partly raised up as a Pulitzer winner because it was unusual for its time? Or was this a frequent subject that was being addressed but Annie Dillard was addressing it differently. And you get some answers if you do a little research. But I am not familiar with the Pulitzer winners or finalists of that decade in particular. And so I thought I would ask you.
Hunter McClinton [00:13:15] Well, here I am. And I will say, too, I do think that hers is one of the first ones that started the wave again. But I also think that hers is one of the few. While I don't really think that she's writing -- it doesn't really feel -- I don't know. I hate to genderize writing, but I do feel like there is a difference in perspective that she's bringing to this than a lot of the male writers, I guess, just in how she's engaging.
Annie Jones [00:13:46] Oh, yes. She's not Henry David Thoreau. And there's this really great article. So we'll link to the Alexander Chee, as you mentioned. There's a fantastic article I came across today called The Thoreau of the Suburbs, and it's an Atlantic article from 2015 all about Annie Dillard and the impact of this book. And in it, I think even Annie Dillard herself is kind of reflecting on she worried about publishing this book under her name. She worried about not being this stereotypical adventurer like John Muir or something like that. And so she is very different, even though throughout the book you don't really know if you just stumbled upon this book and didn't know who Annie Dillard was or you didn't know the author's name, you would have no idea who the narrator was. There's really very little genderizing of the narrator at all. But I do think she is different. And maybe even-- I hate to throw this word around, but maybe a bit of a trailblazer for her time.
Hunter McClinton [00:14:51] I do feel like in the same way that we bring who we are, we bring our identity and our struggles and the ways that we've been shaped by the world to our reading experience. I definitely see that happens on the writing experience and I think that being being a woman, even at this point in time, we're still seeing like a lot of struggles going on. Even in the books from the sixties on the National Book Award longlists, you see a lot of women writers writing about domesticity and like in that confining kind of thing and she's just trying to say like, no, this is not the road that everyone has to take even then. And so I think that if she was to have any influence in that at all, maybe that was part of the reason why she felt the need to separate that. I don't know.
Annie Jones [00:15:40] I'm curious, since this was your first time reading as well, did you like me -- so I started this and liked it, but I immediately thought -- I was reading it for this podcast for a specific deadline and I thought, oh, dear, I've waited too late. Oh, dear, this is going to take me a lot longer than I thought.
Hunter McClinton [00:16:01] You and I know that, you and I, both will be like, oh, I'll read this tonight. We're recording Wednesday. I'll read this Tuesday. It's fine.
Annie Jones [00:16:08] That's right. Well, I pulled it on Monday and I was like, I'm going to read half on Monday, half on Tuesday, process and take notes on Wednesday and then record Wednesday evening. And I started it on Monday and really did think, oh, I have made a mistake. The only way I know to describe it is, this is classic literature. This is literature I need bandwidth for, brainpower for, this is not like -- I don't know -- a simple essay here.
Hunter McClinton [00:16:39] Right.
Annie Jones [00:16:39] This is verbose. The word is certainly not flowery. That's not what it is. Because I think her descriptions are actually quite sparse. But there is depth to this writing. There is density to this writing. And so for the first 50 or 100 pages-- in fact, Tuesday morning I was on page 50 or 60. And I looked at Olivia and I was like, I'm so sorry. I have to go home. I have to go home and read this and I have to set aside. It can't be like in between something. It can't be while I'm in my car waiting for something. It has to be, like, put everything else aside, put the phone down, focus, read for a couple of hours. And I'm so glad I did that because then I don't know if it was me and my own surroundings changing, my own attention changing, or if I became accustomed to the rhythm of any Dillard's words. But after page 100, it did feel a little easier. Like, I did feel like, oh, I'm used to this now, no. It is still, boy, a lot of descriptive nature scenes. Like, there is a lot. But I wonder, did you also find that to be the case where you reached a point where you felt like, oh, yes, now I get this.
Hunter McClinton [00:17:57] Well, the book opens with this scene with the cat jumping out the window. And I was like, oh, this is delightful. And it feels like a trick in a way, because you get invest to this--
Annie Jones [00:18:14] Because it's kind of this funny little anecdote and then there really aren't a lot of anecdotes.
Hunter McClinton [00:18:18] Yeah. No. And so I was thinking, this is going to be great. And it's so funny because whenever I read books, if I don't think I'm getting it, I always think it's so funny. I can tell that. And it's funny, especially with this book because I'm always like-- the other day, somebody was like asked, "Do you consider yourself like a religious person? And I was like, not religious, I guess, like spiritual. But I'm always like, God, if this is going to reveal something to me, let me know.
Annie Jones [00:18:44] That sounds vaguely religious.
Hunter McClinton [00:18:46] Yeah, I know. So I was at a point about like 60 pages in and I was like, well, this has got to be a toughie. So I might need a bit of little spiritual help up here. And then, of course, I got to I think it's in chapter six where she talks about self-consciousness and how it's like your own subconscious kind of like it's what brings you out of these moments. And how consciousness is important because that's how you're experiencing things. But self-consciousness is bad for that. And so basically I read that and it's one of those things where-- I just went on this trip to New York, New Jersey, to visit a friend. And there were all these really beautiful moments. And then I would become aware of myself and I'd be taken out of it. And I think that it's one of those things where-- and I think all books do this -- it may only be like one paragraph or one page or one sentence that says something that is so accurate to your experience that you are living in the moment that you're like, this is why this book is meant for me to read. And so that was it for me. And it was in the late seventies, early eighties, and I was like, okay, now I can finish this.
Annie Jones [00:20:00] Well, and I think there is also a moment where, you're right, there's a passage or a sentence or a paragraph that maybe speaks to you personally. Or there's just a moment where you realize, oh, if I pay attention to this, there are good things here. Because we're going to talk a little bit about this. I love nature, but I thought, man, this scene-- and there are some scenes that will stick with me, I think, for a very long time. One is the scene in which a frog is sucked dry by a water bug. And I could very much visualize that in my head. And I was appalled.
Hunter McClinton [00:20:41] Yeah.
Annie Jones [00:20:41] And so she has these really gruesome descriptions. There's another scene where a praying mantis is like eating itself or like eating its prey and it's head like turns around. She's very, very, descriptive. And so those moments caught my attention, which this is what I think is so interesting about her work. She kind of paints this really gruesome picture where it snaps you into awareness, like, if you've been kind of glazed over reading, which I think I was in parts, then all of a sudden you're reading and you're like, wait a minute, what? And you go back and you read that scene again. And then what follows is something philosophical or theological, and all of a sudden I was back in again. And so probably from page 100 or maybe, like you said, 70 or 80 on, I was pretty well hooked because all of a sudden I was like, oh, I see what she's doing. It took me a minute to get it. And then it was like when I did, I thought, okay, now I'm invested. Whereas, at first, I felt like, oh, could this be a slog? Oh, no, no one prepared me that this might be a slog. There's also this really beautiful passage. There are two ways I know that I would really love a book, and one is that I literally, like, carry it around the house. Like, I don't know why. I'm not ready to put it down. Like, I'm not ready physically to shelve it. And then the second way is if I read it aloud to Jordan.
[00:22:02] And poor Jordan got home from work yesterday and I was in our little reading room and he sat on the floor and I was like, great, glad you're here. I have some things to read to you. And I proceeded to read through multiple passages of this beautiful work, including this passage. And this is one of the only personal passages in the book. It's this brief moment where she talks about being six or seven years old in Pittsburgh, and she becomes obsessed with hiding pennies in the sidewalk or pennies in trees. And she chucks arrows to show people like where the hidden money is. And she takes great joy in this surprise, but she doesn't stick around to see does anybody find the money she's hidden. Like, it's just this thing that she knows she has done. And then she, of course, turns that into almost this allegory or this metaphor for we walk around not seeing the pennies in the trees. And I loved that so much. But it's kind of a rare example in the book where she shows a bit of herself. There's really not a lot where she tells us who she is. She's mostly telling us who and what nature is and what that says potentially about humanity as a whole. Not what it says about Annie Dillard as a whole, which I thought that was not what I was expecting. I definitely pictured, oh, we're going to get pictures of Annie Dillard tromping through the woods and taking off her dirty socks and hiking boots at the end of the day and crashing into bed. We really don't get any of that. Were you surprised by that?
Hunter McClinton [00:23:40] Well, I think that it's stuff like this where somebody transcends the self in that capacity. That is why books like these are well worth it to Putlizer. And that's the thing too. I think that because she's trying to be less involved in the self and more out there, it makes sense. But it did take me to that because I had just read the Crane Wife a couple of weeks ago. It's so good. But I was kind of like in that mindset. But then when you realize what Annie Dillard is doing, I think once you start to realize what she's doing, then you're like, aha, it makes sense. Yeah.
Annie Jones [00:24:20] Yes, yeah. It's not supposed to be Annie Dillard's memoir, which is definitely, I think what I mistakenly thought. It's supposed to be what? A theological treatise, a philosophical treatise using nature as the lens. I just have a lot of thoughts. So it also made me think-- and I don't know, I think you and I both have, (although certainly in different capacities and in different forms) aspirations to write and for writing and for the writing life. You are much better at channeling that part of your life than I am. But I'm curious, so as I was reading, I thought, man, what is it about these writers? I was thinking about landscapes that I have actually seen. So I've been to Walden Pond. I traipsed around Walden Pond, certainly not like Thoreau did, but I did hike around there. Like, I have a very vivid picture of that in my brain. I stood in awe at the beautiful pastoral landscape of Jane Austen's home. I've gotten to sit in C.S. Lewis's house and look outside and see his beautiful garden. I mean, these are experiences that I never thought I would have in my life.
[00:25:34] I got to go to Ellen Montgomery's home and see why aunt Shirley loved Prince Edward Island so much. But all of those things to me are so pastoral, lush, green. You go there and you instantly know, oh, this is how someone could sit and write because look at what surrounds them. And I thought the same thing about Annie Dillard writing. I thought, oh, and then like, I'm sitting in my little house in Thomasville, Georgia, and I looked out my windows and I thought, well, crap. Like, how am I going to write like this? Which I'm not, but how am I going to express the things I want to express if I look out and see a street? Like, how does this work? And so I was curious, do these moments ever hit you where you also feel like, wait, I live a more suburban life or I don't live in this idyllic landscape. How will this impact or affect my writing? And then I, of course, want to talk about what was actually Annie Dillard's writing experience, which I learned after reading The Atlantic article. But I just wondered, does nature play any role in your writing life?
Hunter McClinton [00:26:44] Yes. But it's funny because you would think maybe it would play more of a role like in the now. But I mostly grew up with my granny in a beauty shop and most of my stuff was very like in that realm. But in my teen years, I was with my mom and my stepdad a lot, and they lived like in a log cabin deep in the woods. And so all I saw was like over 200 acres of just trees and trees and all that stuff. And so a lot of times actually when I'm writing-- this is so weird, but I'm constantly like just visualizing myself in that place. And so it really kind of feels like-- and this sounds like so hippie dippy, but all of the walls kind of fall away. I do live a very nice sheltered life now. But I just kind of like put myself back in that wilderness every time I'm writing. And so I think that it does. It does in an unexpected way, but it does.
Annie Jones [00:27:52] So when I read this Atlantic article and maybe you realize this too from reading other works of Annie Dillard's, but interestingly, I had pictured like, again, all while I was reading I thought, gosh, she lives at this creek and she is deep in the woods and she's laying on her belly, looking at the praying mantis, looking at the muskrat. Like, I had all these visual cues and all this imagery that I was conjuring, picturing her there. And then when I read The Atlantic piece, I realized-- and Annie Dillard of her own admission was like, well, I lived in the suburbs. I lived in the suburbs. I was married. She said, "I was a housewife." She was married to her former professor. And it just so happens he was not an important part of the story. So he's not included. He didn't really care to be included. It wasn't important to the story she was writing. And she was like, I never intended to deceive anyone. I guess it's just what I chose to focus on. And I buy that. I really do buy that. I did not feel deceived by Annie Dillard. But I will also tell you that I immediately was like, well, I wish I'd known that. It would have made me feel less bad about my own life or my own natural experiences. Because I definitely pictured Cheryl strayed, like, you know, strapping on a backpack and like perhaps walking through the woods. I pictured something that then it turns out, no, she was going home to dinner every night. Even at one point, she says, I began writing this book at the library where I looked out on an asphalt parking lot. And so does this elimination of part of Annie Dillard's story affect the book or how you see the book or not?
Hunter McClinton [00:29:53] I don't think so. In the same way that we say, yes, her work is transcending the self in a way, the lens that we tell a story with is our own. And so, the way that we see the world is our own. So we know so much. We probably know more about her from this than we would from, like, her memoir and American childhood [Inaudible], Because we're learning the questions that she's really...
Annie Jones [00:30:23] The things that she's asking. Yes.
Hunter McClinton [00:30:25] Yeah. So I guess that in a way, I almost thought there's something more vulnerable here in saying, like, let me take away all of the things that like the mask that I wear for the world. Like, let me take away like this life that I have, this marriage that I have. Let me take all of those things and strip that away. And here it's like, what is going on in my mind and in my heart at all times. I think she's right. Like, there was no place for everything else because... So I guess in my mind that that never really even occurred to me that she was leaving things out because I was like whatever else must just be extraneous.
Annie Jones [00:31:01] You're right. We really do get then-- and this is what I think writers think about all the time, right? Is what is truth? And like what does truth telling look like? What does it look like in fiction? What does it look like in nonfiction? And we as reader or I certainly think about that. Like, I literally finished right before we started recording the new Emma Straub. And there's like a line where she talks about the truth is in the feelings. And she's clearly grappling with her in the novel. The main character's dad is a writer and she's kind of like, what truth is he telling here? What version of himself is he putting onto the page? And to some extent, even though we don't know, like you said, maybe about Annie Dillard's childhood or about her marriage, we really do know the most intimate parts of her. After reading this, we know the questions that keep her up at night and we know the lens with which she sees the world. What kind of person stands at a bridge and observes the muskrat for an hour? Like, we know a lot about her by the very things she's chosen to omit. There's this great line in that Atlantic story I was telling you about, which is called, again, the Thoreau of the Suburbs. And the author says, "Other writers have hunted down awe-inspiring experiences in far-flung places. On the Pacific Crest Trail, in the wilds of Arches National Park or among the glaciers of Southeast Alaska. But Dillard walked around her own neighborhood and captured a world that was buzzing with wonders and horrors." And I immediately thought. Okay, now that kind of writing, I can do.
[00:32:36] So it did also encourage me as a writer once I realized, oh, it's not like Annie Dillard spent six months living in the wilderness alone, which is definitely, I think, kind of what I envisioned. I think I envisioned her living at a cabin in the woods. But, no, she just walked around her neighborhood. So this might be surprising to you or not, but when we were in the 11th grade, we spent a semester or a few weeks on the transcendentalist movement and I became very invested. I was very intrigued and into the whole thing. And I loved Thoreau and I loved Emerson, but I especially love Thoreau. And then I remember growing up and into adulthood, and a critique I always heard of Thoreau was, well, you know, his mom did his laundry and he lived right down the street from Concord. And if you go to Walden Pond, it is not really in the middle of nowhere. It is quite close to civilization. And I remember thinking, well, what a cop-out. Like, why didn't he at least tell us he still had help or he wasn't completely self-sufficient. And now I've taken yet another turn and thought, well, he didn't tell us that because he didn't need to. That's not what it was about. The whole point of that story was not holed up in a cabin and don't talk to anybody. The whole purpose of that was to pay attention. And can't we then pay attention anywhere. I don't know. Did you sense in yourself when you think about authors and what they choose to share or what they choose to keep? Has it changed your perspective on their writing at all?
Hunter McClinton [00:34:17] It's funny because I've been thinking a lot about a couple of years ago when Alexander Chee's essay collection came out, How to Write a Biographical Novel. Because he talks a lot about how most novel-- it's kind of a joke now at this point that so many first novels are like thinly veiled memoir. And I was thinking about that, then I was thinking about The Friend by Sigrid Nunez, which was the National Book Award winner in 2018. And also Florida by Lauren Groff. And all these books are books that are talking about the self versus the story, like, whether fiction or nonfiction, how much of yourself you're putting out there. Because even a nonfiction like this one is showing, even in nonfiction, you are still cultivating a certain self that's in service of the greater narrative. And I also think I'm very biased in this because most of what I write is memoir. And so I think that I have this deep awareness now of that you cannot fit your whole self and you cannot fit any other person's whole self into any... I think there's that quote from Priest Daddy where she talks about that, how there's almost like a joy in knowing that you can't really fit a whole person onto a page.
Annie Jones [00:35:32] Right. Which is actually so comforting. And I don't know what it is about myself, where even in my writing, when I am writing more essay kind of things and I think, oh, well this isn't really fair. Like, this is really only my perspective. I think that might be my Enneagram five frame, to be honest with you, where I just want to see everything from all sides when the reality is the only story I can tell is mine. The only story I can tell is my perspective, at least in terms of essay writing or memoir writing. And so it actually takes some of the pressure off to realize, oh, this isn't meant to be the whole story, it's just part of the story.
Hunter McClinton [00:36:09] Yeah. And I think we talked a lot about Mary Karr, who I'm obsessed with. And she actually talks a lot about how like she will say, like, maybe my sister would say this or maybe my mom would say this. Like, she'll include those moments. And I always find that very beautiful. Or she'll even say that maybe her memory is open. And I love when writers are so honest to the point where even how they choose to portray the narrative, they show the themes a little bit.
Annie Jones [00:36:41] Speaking of Mary Karr, who I think also does this quite well, this book feels like it's a book about nature. Then it becomes a book about philosophy and a book about theology. And even though the book is told in seasons, essentially we start in winter. What Annie Dillard says is that the book is really divided into two parts.
Hunter McClinton [00:37:04] Yeah.
Annie Jones [00:37:05] And it's supposed to be the two ways in which there are to view God. One is via positiva and the other is via negativa. And so I wondered, did you naturally pick up on that division? Like, did you kind of pick up or did you do like me? And I certainly would not have been able to say, please, I'm not a Ph.D... Like, I wouldn't have been able to say, oh, yes, via positiva was the first half and via negativa was the second, but I did. And I think we can actually thank my Christian upbringing because immediately it was like a flood. Well, well, well.
Hunter McClinton [00:37:41] Yeah.
Annie Jones [00:37:41] And so to me, that is when I did pick up on, oh, this book is changing tone a little bit after the flood.
Hunter McClinton [00:37:47] Yeah, it's so funny you said that because I literally thought the same thing. Well, you're like North Florida, which is basically the crumbs of South Georgia. So it's the same thing. But I almost texted you, but I was like, oh, well, I don't know if you've gotten there or not. But I was like, oh, she's definitely going to pick up on this.
Annie Jones [00:38:08] Yes. So that is where I did notice. Oh, this book is not only told in four parts, it's really told in two. And so anyway, I wondered-- I feel like this isn't too personal. We talk about this stuff all the time, but which-- not even just which part of the book because I think we've already answered that, but which way of seeing God makes more sense to you? So Annie Dillard, in her author's note, says that the via positiva sees God as-- and I don't think she's talking about a particular-- like, I don't know that she's talking about a Christian God. She's just talking about a God like figure. She talks about the philosophers who look at the world through the via positive lens, assert that God is omnipotent, omniscient, etc., that God possesses all positive attributes. Then the via negativa is they all stress God's unknowability, and anything we might say of God is untrue because we can only think in creaturely attributes which do not apply to God. Which one is more appealing to you or which one is the way with which you see the world?
Hunter McClinton [00:39:12] I don't know why I actually remember this. Somebody said this a while back to me. They were talking about not this book. They were talking about those-- She didn't make this up?
Annie Jones [00:39:23] No, she did not make this up.
Hunter McClinton [00:39:26] Somebody else had talked about this a couple of years ago to me, as I said. Because they were asked you look like you're from south Georgia. So you must know about heavenly things, so tell me this. And they were talking about the via negative part. They said that via negativa is where you strip everything away that's not God, and the whole is what God is of what's left. And I don't know. I guess. It's funny because I agree with you because I think that maybe you and I both saw that the second section was more investing than the first. But I think in a certain way, I think maybe that's because it goes against my nature of thinking that God isn't everything kind of thing. You know what I mean? I feel like I'm always-- I think it was The Color Purple that like talks about that. Like, about God being-- I don't remember the whole thing. A lot of books talk about this, about how God isn't in everything. Wow, maybe I just read a lot of faith literature. I don't know.
Annie Jones [00:40:34] You know me, I do. But I was thinking a lot about this because I love this question and I am-- again, I get so irritated at the things I don't know, which is silly. We shouldn't be irritated by the things we don't know. We should be grateful and learn to know them. But I had not heard about this two part system, this was new language to me. And I would like to do some more research. I'm very curious about it. But I think I was raised in a household where it was via positiva. And I am firmly grateful for that. And I think like somebody like my mom that might be the view with which she sees the world. And I'm grateful for that. But I do think my personality is much more comfortable with the via negativa and with the gray and with the unknowing. In fact, it brings me a lot of comfort. I don't think that this brings my mom a lot of comfort. I talk about my mom because she's a spiritual person in my life. But I think for me it is so comforting to know that God is unknowable and therefore I can't know everything. I think that is comforting to me. And so it is not surprising to me that if that is the way with which she divided the book, that then the second half would have been not necessarily more appealing but would have gotten my attention more than the first half. Makes a lot of sense to me.
Hunter McClinton [00:41:55] Yeah.
Annie Jones [00:41:56] Before we move on to perhaps modern examples of similar literature, I do want to talk about the fact that she is laugh out-loud-funny. Did you laugh out loud?
Hunter McClinton [00:42:06] Yeah, I did.
Annie Jones [00:42:07] She is very funny. I guess I just want to let readers know because obviously it's a lot of deep things. We're talking a lot about God and a lot about faith. And to be clear, she talks about aspects of Judaism. She talks a lot about the Old Testament. She talks a lot about Buddhism. She makes references to different religions. She quotes from the Koran. So it's not just Christian worldview she's espousing. It's quite interesting; although, all the writings she actually incorporates I find that to be really lovely. But anyway, I just don't want to hide the fact that this is also laugh-out-loud funny, but there are parts and passages where she's so like-- I'd be curious to know what she is like in person. She's so witty, like, very quick. Like, it almost sneaks up on you, the sense of humor. And so if you're intimidated by some of the subject matter, I guess I would encourage you to not be. Because first of all, the nature writing is great. So if you just love reading about the physical world, I think this would be appealing. But also the way she writes really did cause me to laugh out loud on multiple occasions.
Hunter McClinton [00:43:16] Yeah. No, I do agree. And I don't know. I always find it so fascinating when nature writers start to explore. They go from nature writing into something like more of--
Annie Jones [00:43:33] Esoteric or theological or untouchable? Yeah.
Hunter McClinton [00:43:36] Yes. Thank you.
Annie Jones [00:43:37] Well, esoteric might be the-- whatever. We know what we're saying.
Hunter McClinton [00:43:41] The words. Yes.
Annie Jones [00:43:43] Do you think you will go into your daily life now. I'm laughing because I know me and it's already changed my life. I'm just curious, will you now go into your life paying closer attention to things?
Hunter McClinton [00:43:56] Oh, I literally on my way home, I was thinking, like, wow, I really haven't been paying attention. I looked out my window and I thought, look at the flowers-- the weeds-- look at the flowers on the side of the road. And it's literally like full on weeds. And I'm just like, the beauty.
Annie Jones [00:44:16] There was a ladybug on my front door today and I was like, I need to stop and count its spots.
Hunter McClinton [00:44:21] Ooh!
Annie Jones [00:44:23] So I do love that as well. It'll make you pay closer attention. We did this with Beloved, and I'm curious, as a bookseller, obviously constantly think, okay, what could pair with this or what could live in conversation with this? So what books do you think could live in conversation or be compared to Pilgrim at Tinker Creek?
Hunter McClinton [00:44:42] There is a book that I own and it's by the author of that Letters to a Young Scientist, I believe. Do you know what I'm talking about?
Annie Jones [00:44:52] Yes, I do. I'm looking it up for you.
Hunter McClinton [00:44:54] He wrote a book called Creation or something.
Annie Jones [00:44:57] It's Edward Owen Wilson, The Hebrew Letters to a Young Scientist.
Hunter McClinton [00:45:02] Oh, E.O. Wilson.. So he has a book called Creation An Appeal to Save Life on Earth. And I believe that he's either an agnostic or an atheist or something. And he's writing to religious people to try to find this common ground of loving the earth and trying to save it.
Annie Jones [00:45:29] Interesting. Would I like this book?
Hunter McClinton [00:45:31] I think so. I think so because I think it comes from a very loving and interesting place of-- I love this idea of, like, I think you and I both are like this. We love to find this middle ground where we can have these really interesting conversations and explore things.I think that's something he does really beautifully.
Annie Jones [00:45:48] Oh, okay. I think E.O Wilson is a great comp. I immediately thought locally of Janisse Ray and Sue Cerulean. Janisse Ray I've mentioned many times before she's written a book called Ecology of a Cracker Childhood, which is certainly more local. But Wild Spectacle is her newest essay collection. And Sue Ceruleans's memoir, I Have Been Assigned the Single Bird in which she talks about caring for her aging father while also talking about what it's like to be a bird watcher and a bird-- she takes care of birds on the coast. I thought about Margaret Wrinkles, book Late Migrations and her essay collection, or her collection of newspaper columns called Graceland. And then I also thought of Madeleine L'Engle. So a lot of people obviously know her from her children's literature or from her science fiction, but she wrote a beautiful quartet of books called The Crosswicks journals. The first one, I think is called A Circle of Quiet. But she's really talking about like her own life and family. And she writes beautifully about nature. I read a couple of those and really loved them. And then as we were talking, it occurred to me that this is something Barbara Kingsolver also does very well, although in fiction rather than nonfiction.
Hunter McClinton [00:47:03] I I was just thinking about her, too. And I also think there are three books that I think you could read, like, one of them as like a companion piece for that, and then read the other two as a companion piece. It's like sort of just following the trajectory. But Annie Proulx wrote she read a book called Bark Skins, that is it's kind of like telling the story of like sweeping history through this set of woods, this forest, I guess. And it's very fascinating. And there's also a book called Greenwood by Michael Christie that is also...
Annie Jones [00:47:40] Yes.I've thought about that book. I've never read it, but I've wondered about that book.
Hunter McClinton [00:47:45] Yeah, that one. And there's like one more that I can't remember, but it's fine. I'll--
Annie Jones [00:47:50] Have you heard any buzz about the new memoir, but it also looks like a science book called A Portrait of the Scientist as a Young Woman? It's by Lindy Elkins Tanton. I want to say it might be a Norton book.
Hunter McClinton [00:48:02] That sounds good.
Annie Jones [00:48:03] Anyway, it looks really good because she's a planetary scientist and all of this writing and Annie Dillard's writing reminded me we went to Los Angeles a few weeks ago. We went to Griffith Observatory and we attended the planetarium show and of course I wept almost uncontrollably at the end because they did this beautiful-- I wish I had the script for it, to be honest with you. It was called Center of the Universe. And I was so deeply moved because it was about humans and their place in the world and in the globe and in the universe. And I just really loved it. And so so much of this writing, again, taking the macro-- is that the-- am I using economics terms? What are we doing? But like taking that macro like big picture view and then like zooming in on these micro things. I just, I love it. I don't know that I can do it, but I am so grateful for writers who can.
Hunter McClinton [00:48:56] No, I completely agree. I'm glad that we read this and I'm going to definitely like read it again.
Annie Jones [00:49:04] Yes. I think it is one that you almost need to-- dare I say, you need to read it more than once.
Hunter McClinton [00:49:08] Yeah, I would say that. In another way though it kind of-- oh, and I think we both talked about how this kind of reminded us of Marilynne Robinson.
Annie Jones [00:49:15] Yes, absolutely.
Hunter McClinton [00:49:17] But it's one of those things where sometimes I'm like, do I want people to know? Because, yes, I want people to read it and love it. But also like, it's mine.
Annie Jones [00:49:29] Yes. It's that book clutched to the breast kind of thing. Immediately when I finished it, I texted my-- or I think I was maybe halfway through because I was loving it at this point, I texted it to my brother because I know he will love it. And then I finished it and texted it to my mom and cousin because I was like, they will all love it. But then I also thought, but if you guys hate it, please don't ever tell me.
Hunter McClinton [00:49:51] Yeah. Oh, yeah.
Annie Jones [00:49:55] Somebody DM'd me very kindly and they were like, hey, I'm 50 pages in and I'm struggling. And I was like, totally. Your points are valid. I also struggled. Gets to page 100 and I think you'll like it more because by the end I just thought it was so profound. But you're right, I kind of feel ownership over it now.
Hunter McClinton [00:50:14] Yeah. Also, this is random. Earlier, you were talking about-- it's like you mentioned reading This Time Tomorrow, the new Emma Straub. And as we were talking just now, I’m thinking, like, why did she mention that? Because I already knew. And I literally just now remembered. You guys you think that, like, I would know that we were recording because, like, we were doing this. But no, I always forget that we're recording every time we talk.
Annie Jones [00:50:39] Yes. We really are. I would like to close with one of my favorite passages and then I think that I'll call it. And then in August, we're going to do this again and we're going to read Andrew Shean Greer's Pulitzer Prize winning book Less. But I got to tell you, this book has been on my list for years, and I'm so grateful for this podcast for giving me the push, because sometimes I don't read things unless I have a deadline. So thank you very much. Okay. Here's a quote from Annie Dillard in Pilgrim at Tinker Creek, "I am afraid, and nibbled survivor in a fallen world. And I am getting along. I am aging and eaten and have done my share of eating too. I am not washed and beautiful in control of a shining world in which everything fits. But instead I'm wandering all about on a splintered wreck I've come to care for, whose gnawed trees breathe a delicate air, whose bloodied and scarred creatures are my dearest companions, and whose beauty beats and shines, not in its imperfections but overwhelmingly in spite of them, under the wind-rent clouds, upstream and down."
Hunter McClinton [00:51:51] It's so good.
Annie Jones [00:51:54] Okay. This week I'm reading Flying Solo by Linda Holmes. Hunter, what are you reading?
Hunter McClinton [00:52:01] I'm reading Oh, William! By Elizabeth Strout.
Annie Jones [00:52:08] From the Front Porch is a weekly podcast production of The Bookshelf, an independent bookstore in Thomasville, Georgia. You can follow The Bookshelf’s daily happenings on Instagram @Bookshelftville. And all the books from today's episode can be purchased online through our store website. Bookshelfthomasville.com
[00:52:25] A full transcript of today's episode can be found at fromthefrontporchpodcast.com. Special thanks to Studio D Podcast Production for production of From the Front Porch and for our theme music which sets the perfect, warm and friendly tone for our Thursday conversations.
[00:52:39] Our executive producers of today's episode are Donna Hechler. Angie Erickson. Cammy Tidwell. Chantelle. C.
Executive producers (Read their own names) [00:52:47] Nicole Marsee. Wendi Jenkins. Laurie Johnson. Kate Johnston Tucker.
Annie Jones [00:52:52] Thank you all for your support of From the Front Porch. If you'd like to support From the Front Porch, please leave a review on Apple Podcasts. Your input helps us make the show even better and reach new listeners. All you have to do is open up the podcast app on your phone, look for From the Front Porch, scroll down until you see 'Write a Review' and tell us what you think.
[00:53:10] Or, if you're so inclined, you can support us over on Patreon where we have three levels of support. Front Porch Friends, Book Club Companions and Bookshelf Benefactors. Each level has an amazing number of benefits, like bonus content, access to live events, discounts and giveaways. Just go to Patreon.com/fromthefront porch. We're so grateful for you and we look forward to meeting back here next week.