Episode 386 || Backlist Book Club: LESS
This week on From the Front Porch, Hunter McClendon of @shelfbyshelf joins Annie for the Backlist Book Club. Listen in as the two of them discuss the Pulitzer Prize winning novel Less on the Backlist Book Club.
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The books discussed this week include:
Less by Andrew Sean Greer
Beloved by Toni Morrison
Pilgrim at Tinker Creek by Annie Dillard
Less is Lost by Andrew Sean Greer
World Travel by Anthony Bourdain
Britt-Marie Was Here by Fredrick Backman
Traveling with Pomegranates by Sue Monk Kidd and Ann Kidd Taylor (this is permanently backordered )
The Guncle by Steven Rowley
From the Front Porch is a weekly podcast production of The Bookshelf, an independent bookstore in South Georgia. You can follow The Bookshelf’s daily happenings on Instagram at @bookshelftville, and all the books from today’s episode can be purchased online through our store website, www.bookshelfthomasville.com.
A full transcript of today’s episode can be found below.
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This week Annie is listening to Dinosaurs by Lydia Millett. Hunter is reading Paul by Daisy Lafarge.
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Transcript:
Annie Jones [00:00:01] Welcome to From the Front Porch, a conversational podcast about books, small business, and life in the South.
[00:00:24] "What had Freddy meant? The bravest person I know. For less. It is a mystery. Name a day. Name an hour in which Arthur Less was not afraid of ordering a cocktail. Taking a taxi. Teaching a class. Writing a book. Afraid of these and almost everything else in the world. Strange, though, because he is afraid of everything. Nothing is harder than anything else. Taking a trip around the world is no more terrifying than buying a stick of gum. The daily dose of courage." Andrew Sean Greer, Less.
[00:01:01] I'm Annie Jones, owner of The Bookshelf, an independent bookstore in beautiful downtown Thomasville, Georgia. And this week, it's time for Backlist Book Club. In today's episode, Hunter, Mclendon, and I are discussing the Pulitzer Prize-winning novel Less by Andrew Shawn Greer.
[00:01:16] Before we get started, I wanted to remind listeners of The Bookshelf's upcoming Fall Literary Lunch. Every quarter, I host these bookish lunches on Zoom to introduce readers to my favorite titles of the upcoming season. With fall nearly upon us, can you taste it in the air? We certainly cannot. But a girl can dream. We've got our fall literary lunch on the books for Thursday, September 1st at noon Eastern. Your ticket to the event includes access to the zoom, which you can watch live or later it will be recorded a discount code for fall preorders and a handy PDF Guide to the new books of the season. To snag a ticket to this virtual event. Head to the bookshelves website. That's bookshelfthomashville.com then click events and tickets. There's also a link in the show notes of today's episode. Now back to the show. Hi, Hunter.
Hunter Mclendon [00:02:03] Hello.
Annie Jones [00:02:05] Welcome to Backlist Book Club.
Hunter Mclendon [00:02:07] This is so exciting. Also, can I just say so? We're talking about less today, which is, in LGBTQ. Well, I guess it's a gay book, if that's the best way, you know? But I'm just, I'm thankful that, like. So if you have not been listening along to us reading The Count of Monte Cristo, I have just been like, assuming that this is a very like I was assuming that book was gay, like this whole time. I'm still convinced it is. But it's I'm glad that we're reading a book that is like confirmed Helmer.
Annie Jones [00:02:35] Actually gay literature. We're speculating about the count, although Hunter has nearly convinced me. And so. Or I think you have convinced me that the Count is gay or bi. I think that's where I've landed. But yes, this is, as you say, confirmed gay lit. And I'm excited to talk about it. So for those of you who are new here, Backlist Book Club is a series we started actually years ago. I think it first began as Love It or Loathe It, which was a podcast series where we either loved a book or loathed a book. That was pretty fun, but we often landed in the middle ground like rabbits, middle at war. And so we decided to turn it into Backlist Book Club. And we brought it back this year specifically to read Pulitzer Prize-winning books. So we did Beloved, which if you want to go back and listen to those episodes, I had somebody ask, what if I've never read the book? And Hunter, you tell me if you feel this way. I feel like there are occasional spoilers because all of these books are backlist titles. But I think most of these episodes could inspire you to read the book, even if you've never read the book.
Hunter Mclendon [00:03:47] Yeah. Sometimes I think that especially with the books that we've read this year because we read Beloved and we read any Eloise Pilgrim at Tinker Creek and now with Less. I think that these are books that are can be considered more challenging. And so I think being able to see this kind of conversation of I don't know, I think it helps it seem more accessible.
Annie Jones [00:04:06] Yes, that's how I feel, too. So if you were going to skip this episode, I would encourage you to not skip it and instead listen to it and let it inspire maybe a future reading or a future book club conversation you might have in your own communities. So anyway, we read Beloved, which is episode 368 of From The Front Porch, and then we also read Pilgrim at Tinker Creek, which was episode 377. So this is our conversation on Less. Which won the Pulitzer in 2018. Hunter Before we because normally we kind of talk about our thoughts and feelings and our history. Let's first, can you give a synopsis of Less first?
Hunter Mclendon [00:04:45] Oh, gosh, that is hard for this one.
Annie Jones [00:04:48] It is.
Hunter Mclendon [00:04:49] It's about an author in his late forties, kind of I guess what you say is having a midlife crisis.
Annie Jones [00:04:59] Yeah.
Hunter Mclendon [00:05:00] He's having a midlife crisis. And it's about this journey he's taking because I think he's like, I love how I just read this book and I'm already blessed. And I think he's like, he's standing in for his ex-lover, his ex-boyfriend, man's book tour thing.
Annie Jones [00:05:17] Yeah, well, he. Yeah. He was in love. They broke up. His ex-boyfriend is getting married. So, Arthur, basically fills. I don't know. It feels like a long time, but maybe it's just three months or whatever. He fills a period of time with all of these different author visits, guest professorships, like all over the globe so that he can avoid his ex-boyfriend's wedding.And so he kind of goes gallivanting about the globe and we follow him from place to place.
Hunter Mclendon [00:05:51] Thank you. It's so funny because I got so I'm not going to lie. This is one of those books where I think you kind of get caught up in, like the idea that he's exploring so much that like the plot almost becomes secondary at times.
Annie Jones [00:06:02] I was going to say it's not particularly plot-driven. We'll talk about that in a second. To me, no. I loved how the book is arranged, which we may want to talk about. So let's. Have you read this before?
Hunter Mclendon [00:06:16] So I went back to find my initial post of this, which I didn't post until 2018. And I said that I had read the first hundred pages and that it was not for me right now. But I would love to come back and visit later.
Annie Jones [00:06:27] A prophet.
Hunter Mclendon [00:06:29] Yeah. And it's so funny because, like, I listen, I remember very much disliking this book and texting you, I mean, like, I don't really like it and. Yeah.
Annie Jones [00:06:38] Hunter, I specifically I am pretty sure I bought this book. I am pretty sure I bought the hardcover. I want to say at Sundog books or somewhere I feel like I bought a copy, started reading it, did not enjoy like I think I gave it. I think you and I have talked before about how many pages we give a book. I think I had read 50 or so pages and thought, this is not for me. And the reviews. And I looked up some reviews before recording and the reviews are run the gamut. They're all over the place. And I did not enjoy this. And I remember when it won the Pulitzer, I was like, wait, what? And then I was. So I was a little concerned about reading this and I put off reading it because listeners will know by now I had COVID last week and so I didn't read it. And then thought on Monday, I was like, okay, negative for COVID. I'm going to sit down, I'm going to read this book. But I was worried it was going to be a slog. And I don't know either. I don't know what kind of headspace past Annie was in. I had no trouble picking this up, like none at all. I was not bored. I did not. The first 50 pages were not a slog. I immediately was hooked and I thought, what? What was I thinking those many years ago?
Hunter Mclendon [00:07:57] I had the exact. Do you know what I think it is? I think that. You know what I think, as I said in my post, like some books, you have to read them at the right time. And I think that you and I have both read a lot more books that have contributed to our understanding of what this type of book is doing. Because it's also, because this book is a lot more stream of consciousness than what you typically read.
Annie Jones [00:08:21] That's true. Yeah, that's true.
Hunter Mclendon [00:08:23] Because I actually, because I told you to read trust exercise and which you appreciated. But were like.
Annie Jones [00:08:28] Yes, I read it, but it was not maybe for me, that's how it is.
Hunter Mclendon [00:08:32] But I do think I think this is a much its stream of consciousness lite. Like, it's not so much that like you kind of like keep losing yourself, I guess.
Annie Jones [00:08:45] And it's organized. So I have said before many times and Olivia and I talk about this frequently that one thing that keeps us reading is short chapters. And so at first I picked this up and thought like I started reading and I thought, feels like a chapter break should be coming. And then I thought, no one cut because this book is organized by countries. So our third last starts off in San Francisco. Then he heads gosh, I want to say to New York, then Mexico, at some point he's in Italy, he's in Germany. And so each section is rather lengthy, but it covers that country. And so I wound up I read this in one day, but I read one section at a time. So at the end of a section, I would scroll my phone or send an email, and then I went back to reading or I would eat a snack or whatever. And so I actually felt like the broken into sections I really appreciated and I liked that there weren't a million chapters. I actually really liked that it was, I'm enmeshed in this one country where authors visit it, and then we can take a moment and then go to the next country together. And I really wound up liking that format. And it actually contributed, I think, to some of the ease in which I read this book.
Hunter Mclendon [00:10:00] I would agree with that. And I do. And it's so funny, too, because I think that I don't know why I didn't like that, because when I read it the first time, like I've gotten, I think to the first like two different areas. And I was like it, it just didn't really connect with me then. And then I was reading it and I was like, my gosh. Actually, this reminded me some in a really weird way of there's this author named Wright Morris, who was really big in the fifties and sixties, who is no longer really read now, but he would do something really similar and how he would kind of take the take these characters into different territories and each one would really feel kind of broke up its own section of feel very alive. And I think that I think maybe because I was able to kind of like see that connection, it was like really exciting.
Annie Jones [00:10:42] Well, that's right. You've read a lot of other types of literature in between now and then. And I think as readers, we need to be okay with being wrong. So as long as we're willing to say, well, I didn't like that four years ago, but it doesn't mean I might never like it. And four years ago Annie might have been wrong. Like, maybe this book is wonderful. And as long as I'm willing to say, Annie from four years ago didn't know any better, or it wasn't for her at that time. I'm not mad at her. I'm not angry at her. I just know it wasn't for her then, but it's for me now. And how great, what a wonderful gift that I could dive into this world and fall in love with Arthur and fall in love with his story so quickly. I was really worried. And then I do want to point out this feels like a very bookish, nerdy thing to pick up on. First of all, had you read any other books by Andrew Shawn Greer?
Hunter Mclendon [00:11:34] No.
Annie Jones [00:11:34] I haven't either. And now I'm kind of like, should I go back and read his backlist? Because it looks like the Confessions of Max To Bully how we pronounce that that got good reviews so I'm kind of like.
Hunter Mclendon [00:11:49] Just quickly do you think you'll end up reading the sequel to Less?
Annie Jones [00:11:52] Yes, I want to talk about the sequel at the end because I do think now I'm a little I have questions, but I've been treated to put it that way. But the other nerd book nerd thing I wanted to point out, I was looking at this and realized it was edited by Lee Boudreaux. And I think I'm finally at that stage in my literary life where I'm starting to pick up on editors I like. And that is, I don't know that I would have ever picked up on that as a lay reader. I really think that's just from being in the book world a little bit. And I just now see her name is all over many of the books I love. I think about Brood in particular by Jack Nicholson. And so anyway, when I saw Lee Boudraux's name, I thought, well, of course, I'm probably going to love this book. And sure enough, I did. So how great to find an editor that we like.
Hunter Mclendon [00:12:37] I'll be really interested to know because maybe I wonder if Less is Lost is going to be edited by because.
Annie Jones [00:12:45] The different. Yeah. She's with a different. She is with.
Hunter Mclendon [00:12:50] She's with Doubleday now, but.
Annie Jones [00:12:51] That's right, she's with Doubleday. And this was Little Brown and is again I think his sequel is too.
Hunter Mclendon [00:12:57] I'm always so curious about that kind of stuff too. Like, I don't know, like. Anyway.
Annie Jones [00:13:00] Because I think editors play a bigger role than we can ever imagine. I think a lot goes into the editing process. Before we dive in. So kind of what we liked, what we didn't like, I do want to talk about the Pulitzer, but also we've been reading Pulitzer winners. Also thrilled to know after reading this book because there is a Pulitzer-winning author in this book that, according to Andrew Shawn Greer, it is pronounced Pulitzer. And that makes me feel really good.
Hunter Mclendon [00:13:26] Well, that's the thing. I used to call it Pulitzer and people would make fun of me. And that was when I read it here. I was like, see, I was right the first time.
Annie Jones [00:13:34] They literally give a pronunciation and they say, It's Pulitzer, not Pulitzer. So what a relief that we're doing one thing right. So this is a Pulitzer-winning novel. I liked this book upon my second try. In fact, I loved it. I think it'll be a five-star book for me. Is it Pulitzer-winning worthy? Is it unusual in the canon of Pulitzer-winning fiction? You are the awards expert in my mind. How do you feel?
Hunter Mclendon [00:14:05] So okay. It's interesting to think about how the Pulitzer the difference between like something like the Pulitzer and the National Book Award we talked about a little bit before, but like the National Book Award is looking for the best-written book by an American writer, whereas the Pulitzer is looking for the best book, preferably dealing with American life. And I will say that while I don't necessarily think that Less is a book that is specifically dealing with American life. I do think it is a book written with a very American lens. And I think that that aspect of it does that makes it very likely. I can understand that in that way. I am actually very intrigued by so I have not read In The Distance by Hernan Diaz, but I did read his latest book Trust and so that year Less won over The Idiot which I did not like when I first read it. But now I'm like, should I go back and reread it? But it's interesting. So Less has a sequel that's coming out this year and then The Idiot has a sequel that's coming out this year. And then In The Distance have the author of the book all them have a book coming out this I so it's really interesting.
Annie Jones [00:15:14] Yeah yeah that is.
Hunter Mclendon [00:15:15] But anyway everyone thought that In The Distance like whenever they read all three like In The Distance seems like it would have been the book. But I think that if you look at a book like The Hours by Michael Cunningham, that book was a very stream-of-consciousness queer story. And I think that depending on who the judges were that year, I think that, if that's the kind of thing they were looking for, if they wanted like another like a more happy, upbeat version of something like The Hours that have these like elements of like queerness stream of consciousness. Because that's the thing, too, is that The Hours is very inspired by Virginia Woolf because she's in the book, too. But less. It's less. But, there's a lot of references to Proust, but it is also very connected to Virginia Woolf in a lot of ways.
Annie Jones [00:16:00] And Ulysse, I think it's connected to Ulysses some and it's clearly paying homage to some other works of literature. I guess when I read Beloved and when I read Pilgrim at Tinker Creek less to me now, I don't know that 2018 Annie would have agreed, but 2022 Annie finds this way more accessible than Beloved or Pilgrim at Tinker creek. Do you agree?
Hunter Mclendon [00:16:28] I do think this is very accessible now. I did not think it was accessible when I read it the first time.
Annie Jones [00:16:32] I don't know what the difference is like. I don't know that 2018 Annie would have thought it was accessible. But like I told you, I plopped down and read this no problem. Didn't bat an eye.
Hunter Mclendon [00:16:42] Yeah, I actually think that this has a similar quality to. I always think about how Maya Angelou always talked about how the easiest reading is the hardest writing. He and I, you know. And I think that in some ways that, Toni Morrison talked about how whatever like she used to teach that she taught writing and she would talk about how if you have the rhythm right that even if people disagree with you that they'll if the rhythm sounds believable, they're more likely to believe you. And I think that's something that Greer is doing here. Is he knows how to, like, have that perfect rhythm for what and this is, because this is a book that really you have to have the rhythm right for it to work well?
Annie Jones [00:17:29] Yeah.
Hunter Mclendon [00:17:30] And so I think that because I think that these structural things are what really is the structural elements are what is more of a stand out maybe than the more some of the heavier themes or the bigger big idea kind of things.
Annie Jones [00:17:44] Yeah, because there are big things happening in this book. Like if you and we struggled a little bit to say a synopsis, I guess, but when I. I'm not going to talk about the cover for a second. When we look at the cover and maybe again, it's my 2022 eye, but I'm like, wow, this cover looks like a rom com. This cover looks like is this a rom com? Is it a book about aging? Is it a book about grieving? Is it a book about gay love? Is it a book about I mean, what is it?
Hunter Mclendon [00:18:15] But wait, do you know what I just realized? Fleishman is in trouble. Does this book not have connections? To Fleischman is in trouble because they're both. The narration is very similar in what it's doing.
Annie Jones [00:18:25] Yes. It's so true. That's a big comp.
Hunter Mclendon [00:18:29] And Fleischman is very commercial, but it is also, like really smart and wants to know. I think that in a way, maybe what's so brilliant about this book less is that it's deceptively like got a commercial like tilt to it but it still.
Annie Jones [00:18:47] It does like okay as a bookseller, I'm constantly thinking like, who could I put this in the hands of? And while I was reading it, I thought, now wait a minute, there's a world in which this appeals to readers. This is your life. Harriet Chance, which is a book about a woman who's aging, and she goes on a cruise. This feels like English majors might really like it. Like, I kept thinking of the movie Stranger Than Fiction, which is one of my favorite movies, and there are very much to me similar elements to Arthur, less the story as there are to Will Ferrell's character in Stranger Than Fiction. And so I thought, gosh, I actually, and then at the same time, I think I could potentially sell it to a rom-com reader who's looking for something with a little more heft. Like, I think this could easily be put in the hands of both a really literary fiction appreciating customer and then also a commercial reader, which for a Pulitzer winner, feels unusual.
Hunter Mclendon [00:19:41] Yes, I definitely agree with that. Although I will say it's so funny because I did get one or two people messaged me to say that they hated this book and I said.
Annie Jones [00:19:51] I love it. I love when that happens.
Hunter Mclendon [00:19:53] And the thing is, like once I finish the book, I don't really mind.
Annie Jones [00:19:56] Please don't DM. Yeah, yeah, go ahead. Put out your PSA. I think it's valuable.
Hunter Mclendon [00:20:02] I said this on my Instagram recently. I do. I love to have conversations about books after I have finished the book.
Annie Jones [00:20:11] Yes. Do you have a person who's in the middle of a book and is like, I'm loving this so far? I'd be like, well, you're going to hate it.
Hunter Mclendon [00:20:18] Because it gets in your head. It's terrible. Oh, gosh.
Annie Jones [00:20:21] Yeah.
Hunter Mclendon [00:20:22] Yeah. But somebody did message it like I had a couple people message me about one person. So I do think that if you are and this is not like a bad thing. But I think that if you prefer stuff that's like very, very light, very like clean Hoover type books, like, I don't think this is going to be for you, but I think that if you are into the more like Emma, I think you're Emma Straub kind of comes to mind like.
Annie Jones [00:20:44] And I think the Fleischman comparison is valuable because I would not put this you're so I wouldn't give this to you I wouldn't give this to a customer who loves plot driven fiction. And I wouldn't give this to Olivia. I don't. By the way, I don't think Olivia would pick this up like but I don't think Olivia would like this because of the long sections. And, Olivia, this is not a particularly romantic novel, but Olivia is not going to pick this up because it's not her genre. But I wouldn't hand sell it to her, even because of the structure of it and because. That stream of consciousness element that you're talking about where a lot. It's not narrated by Arthur. It's kind of an unnamed narrator for a long time, but it feels very in Arthur's head. It feels like we are in Arthur's head. We're seeing things through his eyes. And so my friend Julianna, who comes on the podcast sometimes I would not hand sell this to her. She is not character-driven kind of person. And I think this is a lot of character development. There was enough plot to keep me engaged, but I think if you're primarily a plot-driven reader, this is probably not going to be for you.
Hunter Mclendon [00:21:53] Yes, I think that is a good distinction because I think that's what most every book I think that most people can get past a lot of things stylistically or structurally if there is a plot, a lot of people who are more plot-driven like plot-driven stories can get into it. But if you don't. But I don't know. Listen, if a book is well-written, I don't need really anything to happen. If I'm like, you know, thank you.
Annie Jones [00:22:17] And I that's yeah. That's how you and I think are very similar. Like I can give an author a lot of leeway if I know if I trust them. But like I could read Matrix by Lauren Groff, even though that was totally outside of genre for me because I knew I trust Lauren Groff. She's going to take me where I need to go.
Hunter Mclendon [00:22:35] Also, why did I think I didn't like this book? Because literally, it feels like it was written for me because it is so messy in some ways.
Annie Jones [00:22:43] Yes, they are so messy. And I know we're saying it's not plot-driven. B and I look, I'm sorry to reference this because I know people have feelings about this book, too, but the Eat, Pray, Love of it all. The fact that it is very familiar, this is a familiar pattern of storytelling, whether you're familiar with it from Eat, Pray, Love, or from Greek tragedies or whatever, this kind of road trip map or this cross across the globe traveling this globetrotting plot device. I love that aspect of storytelling. And so it was very easy for me to know, now we're going to get Arthur, we're going to get Arthur out of New York City. And it's funny, like, if you are in the book world, if you're in the publishing world, this book is very funny because it's all about he's 49 years old. He's a publisher of like one critically successful novel and a couple of other like, it just feels like if you are in or adjacent to publishing it all, you're going to find a lot of humor in this book.
Hunter Mclendon [00:23:49] So do you feel like this is like the la la land of the book thing? Like because la la land was very like movie.
Annie Jones [00:23:58] Yeah. And like the Los Angeles, like, it was for I mean, people from Los Angeles might disagree, but it felt very much for that audience. I think this and this may be part of the reason it wound up, you know how the Oscars love movies about movies?
Hunter Mclendon [00:24:15] Yes.
Annie Jones [00:24:16] So you do wonder, does the Pulitzer love books about books? I'm not sure. This certainly would fall into that category.
Hunter Mclendon [00:24:22] Well, do they love books that mention the Pulitzer? You know what I mean? Which if that's the case, then why did Ann Patchett not win for Commonwealth? I'm just saying.
Annie Jones [00:24:32] Yeah, this book is very much in the literary world. There's a lot of kind of inside jokes about what it's like to be a middle aged author. There's even some really interesting stuff, actually, I do have this question. I typed up questions as I want to do. Let's see, because there's a scene. How could I forget that there's a chapter or a section set in France and Arthur has a former lover or a friend. I think this might just be a friend who tells him he's not a bad writer, but he's a bad gay writer and proceeds to basically tell him he's not a bad writer, but he's a bad gay person. And Arthur is like, wait, so you like my writing, but I'm not gay enough. And the friend was like, yeah, everybody's too nice to tell you, but you only really write about gay tragedy. Like, you're not doing anything uplifting, which I almost thought how genius that Andrew Shawn Greer is in, like subverting this himself by writing this very uplifting gay novel. I thought it was really meta.
Hunter Mclendon [00:25:39] It is. And it's so funny, too, because and maybe that's I'm not going to lie. Maybe that's the reason why I didn't like it the first time, because, first of all, happy things I don't understand at first. Like it feels very, and the thing is, it's true that, at that point when he'd written that, if you look at the books that come out just before that, we'd have like, you know, What Belongs to You by Garth Greenwell. And we've had a little Life by [Inaudible]. And I think that maybe even around the same time we had just got or maybe it was like right after this, we've gotten the great believers by [Crosstalk].
Annie Jones [00:26:10] Yes, that's right.
Hunter Mclendon [00:26:11] And so, it's like all gay tragedy and like that's literally the majority of what was getting published if queer books were getting published at all before 2018, that's what we were saying before. And so it is just very I think his less really has brought about this new demand for more happy and uplifting stories by queer writers.
Annie Jones [00:26:35] And he doesn't gloss over some of the tragic parts. Like I thought it was really very poignant because it's also subtle. The book is very subtle to me, where there's a moment where Arthur Less is saying he's about to turn 50 and he is part of the first generation of gay men to age. And it's just like this passing comment. And you as a straight reader, I read it and think, my gosh, I've never thought about that. Like, this is the first generation of men, gay men, who have been able to age gracefully. And what does that mean and what does that look like? And then how do you do it if you don't have a model for it? If you don't have any examples of it. And I found that to be especially poignant, but it wasn't harped on. It's like a brief passing comment. And then Arthur moves on, like and Greer moves on.
Hunter Mclendon [00:27:29] Also. Speaking of aging gracefully, did you see the Andrew Shawn Greers picture?
Annie Jones [00:27:36] The back this guy? Yeah, he's cute.
Hunter Mclendon [00:27:39] Oh, my gosh. I saw.
Annie Jones [00:27:42] He's really handsome.
Hunter Mclendon [00:27:44] Listen, I. I often think you know who will be my next husband, and. And I literally. I looked. I was, like, trying to find him on social media because I was like, I think I could make him fall in love with me at that post my review.
Annie Jones [00:27:56] Does he have a social media? Does he have an?
Hunter Mclendon [00:27:57] I can't find him. So it's hopeless.
Annie Jones [00:28:01] I kind of love that. I kind of respect that even more. Stay off the grid. Good for you. One of my favorite sections in this book is where one of our Arthurs, this is a former lover, is a Pulitzer Prize-winning poet. So, like, basically one of the great loves of Arthur's life is this poet. He's the one who won the Pulitzer. And in the book, there's this whole section where Arthur talks about what it's like to live with genius. And I thought it was so profound. And I thought, my gosh, I want to read that it's starting, I think at page 67. Is that right? 65 to 67. Just if you're if you have the paperback at home. But I thought it was thought so good. What was it like to live with genius? Like living alone. Like living alone with a tiger. Everything had to be sacrificed for the work. Plans had to be canceled. Meals had to be delayed. Liquor had to be bought as soon as possible, or else all poured into the sink. Money had to be rationed or spent lavishly changing daily. The sleep schedule was the poet's to make, and it was as often late nights as it was early mornings. The habit was the demon pet in the house. The habit, the habit, the habit. The morning coffee and books and poetry, the silence until noon. And it just goes on and on like that. Life without doubt in the morning with the oil beating on a cup of coffee doubt in the pee break, not catching his eye. Doubt in the sound of the front door opening and closing a restless walk. No goodbye. And in the return. Doubt in the slow sound of typewriter keys. Doubt at lunchtime. I thought it was so beautiful.
Hunter Mclendon [00:29:37] And the last two sentences of that whole section where because there's a point where he at one point he loses his wedding. His wedding ring. Yes.
Annie Jones [00:29:49] That's a great scene.
Hunter Mclendon [00:29:50] And let me tell you, because it like the last line of that or the last two lines or it's at one point it references that whole thing about living with genius again. And that because that's the thing he's like talking about, he'll be able to tell and he'll know. And it's like this relief that he feels that he's found this ring and then. Like that last little bit is just so like.
Annie Jones [00:30:14] Yeah, he comes home and he tells this story, which that whole scene is fabulous and funny because he talks about what it's like to have straight mn like come to his aid. And I thought we thought of you in [Crosstalk]. Yeah. And like all of a sudden, these straight men are really helpful. And he's like, my gosh, they're not bullies. They're nice people are good or kind, at least when we have this common mission. So they kind of try to help him find his ring. He finally finds it. He goes home and he tells his partner about it. And then he says, and in the telling, laughing at himself, he watched as Robert looked up from his chair and saw everything. That's what it was like to live with genius. It's so profound.
Hunter Mclendon [00:30:53] And the thing is, the way that whole section is structured, I mean, when you get to that last line again, where it's that repetition, it hits so hard, like it's like poetry.
Annie Jones [00:31:04] It is exactly like poetry. And I think, I don't know, maybe some readers will get bogged down in that language, but I actually find it bizarrely and unusually accessible. To any kind of reader. But the writing is so good and sneaky good. That's what it is. It doesn't feel overwritten. It doesn't feel like it's trying too hard. And I always hate that critique of books that feel so. That feels like such a weird critique. But this book does not feel like it's trying too hard. It just feels like this is Arthur's story. And we get to be a part of it so there's another we talked a little bit about that this feels like a happy book. And there's a scene where Arthur is in Marrakesh and his kind of nemesis, Carlos, confides in him this hypothesis. And he says, like, for some people, the first half of their life is tragedy and the latter half is comedy. But he's convinced that everybody lives both. But he's like, if you start your life with comedy, you end it with tragedy and vice versa. And there's a line that opens the whole book that's like, from where I sit, the story of Arthur Less is not so bad. And I thought, this is so like, I'm not sure I even would have picked up on it. But they're having this interesting conversation about tragedy versus comedy, and you kind of have to ask yourself, well, what am I reading? Because it feels like a quest novel. It feels like an adventure story. A little bit like Arthur going around the world. It feels like a love story. It feels like a comedy because there is a happy ending. That's no spoilers. It just ends happily. It's a happy story. But it did make me wonder, is this a hypothesis? I'm just curious. Do you agree with that? It really made me think. I thought my gosh. And then I was like, oh, no. If the first half of my life was comedy, I am in trouble.
Hunter Mclendon [00:33:03] Well, so it's funny because when I read it, I almost like. So there's a I have this like it reminded me of the story I wrote. Like, it's that story I love at the end, but it talks. I wrote about how my granny once told me that, that in our family, like most people, a lot of people, they'd had so much bad happen in the first half of their lives that they were just kind of ready to end it all. And it's because they didn't know that it was good yet. And I think that, you know, if you can outlive your suffering, then there is so much good leftover. But I also think that if you've had a great life and you're not aware of how great you've had it, that when things start to tumble down, it's going to feel like a tragedy.
Annie Jones [00:33:46] It's going to hurt. It's going to hurt you. You prepare yourself because it will hurt. I once taught a class to some young women and it was in a church setting and I was talking about spiritual deserts. And I mean, I should have known better. These were like high school girls. But I thought, how many of you have experienced a spiritual desert? And most of them raise their hand. But there was one girl who didn't. And looking back, I'm so sorry. I feel like this was kind of mean, but I was like, well, just you wait. Like it's going to come for you. Like they happen like a spiritual desert or tragedy or suffering. It does come. None of us leaves this life unscathed. It all ends in death. Like it's coming. It's happening. And so I do. Gosh, that's a lovely kind of sentiment. Like, if you can outlive your suffering, if you can hold on long enough that there is and I think that is kind of the point with Arthur. Like, it feels almost like purgatory that he's living through. Like each of his stops has its highlights. Like there's a lovely moment where he kind of receives an award that he wasn't expecting. But there's also like, he loses his suit, his luggage gets lost. Like it's kind of all this kind of comedy of errors. And it's like, if Arthur can just hold on, like, if he can just make it back to San Francisco, he's going to realize it's going to be okay.
[00:34:33] But and it's almost like Arthur is tuning out anything else, like even toward the end of the book where people start to kind of try to tell him, hey, did you hear about the wedding? Did you hear what happened? And he's like, it almost doesn't even enter his vision. It almost doesn't even enter into his memory. He just kind of ignores it completely. But I just loved thinking about that and I thought, gosh, what a great book club question. If you read this in a book club to kind of talk to people about is it tragedy, is it comedy or is it both? And it is always both. I did want to talk a little bit about the suit because now all of a sudden the cover does make a lot more sense to me because the cover, I kind of think the cover is wrong for this book. That may be an unpopular opinion, and that's fine. But the cover certainly does make the book more commercial and certainly hints at the romantic elements of the book. But this suit that he's wearing is kind of this famous suit like that he had tailored for himself in Ho Chi Minh, like.
[00:36:10] It's got this beautiful pink lining. And you can see it. You can see it in the book cover. And so when he's abroad, there's a line I hate to be this person who brings up You've Got Me all the time. But there's this line in You've Got Mail where they talk about what people buy while abroad and like what people do when they're abroad. They buy leather jackets they'll never wear and things like that. And I love that Arthur both has success and failure with his long-distance spending. So he talks about this suit and then he winds up buying another suit while overseas. And it gets mailed to him in Japan, which I was like, that's snazzy. That's the fanciest thing I've ever heard. Like, to have something mailed to you, like your Airbnb. I've never been. It never even occurred to me. But he also buys this kind of outlandish outfit in Paris that he realizes then just makes him look like a touristy American. And I'm just curious, have you also bought ridiculous things while overseas?
Hunter Mclendon [00:37:11] Well. So I was only like, I only was overseas one time when I went on my honeymoon and I went to Dubai and South Africa and, I don't know, did I buy anything? That was a. I bought. I bought two tiny little statue things, and then I also bought it for anything that's about anything else that was like, if I bought anything that was, like, silly or ridiculous? Well, thankfully, I was poor.
Annie Jones [00:37:35] But that's the truth, Arthur. I do feel like Arthur must be doing okay for himself now. He acknowledges all of this traveling he has specifically curated so that he, as a writer can get paid. Like he gets paid to go to all these places, which I thought, nan, what a life Hunter that's goals you need to hurry up and write your book so that we can travel internationally.
Hunter Mclendon [00:37:57] I will say I did buy it like this or whatever I was in South Africa. There is we went to the grocery store there and I just bought I was like, I was like, I'm sure cookies are going to taste different from somewhere else. Spoiler alert, all cookies taste the same no matter where you go.
Annie Jones [00:38:13] Doesn't matter. Doesn't matter? Look, I do. I think Arthur and I have similar tendencies where I will buy something overseas so that when I get home and I'm wearing it and you ask me where you got it, instead of saying Target, which is my normal answer, I get to say, London. This old thing. I bought this at Liberty London. Like. But like, I. I think I went. I know I went to Liberty London. Couldn't afford really anything except a handkerchief situation and so bought like this bandana thing. And sure enough, I wore that in my hair pretty recently. I recently became bold enough to wear a bandana in my hair and somebody complimented it. And it was a joy of my life to get to be like, thank you so much. I bought it in London.
Hunter Mclendon [00:38:57] Let me tell you. Lord knows there is a reason why God has not let me go to Italy yet. And it's because I know that everything I want is in Italy. And I'd have to go bankrupt.
Annie Jones [00:39:09] Right. Yeah. Because the fact, like, look, not only him getting his suit mailed to him at his next stop. But having the suit perfectly tailored to you while traveling in Paris. I just thought, man, that is the epitome of luxury. Like to go somewhere where there's a place. I'm pretty sure there's a place in Italy that'll, like, craft a pair of leather sandals to your feet. And I'm like, how much is that? Because that to me means you've made it. You've made it big time. I mean, good for Arthur.
Hunter Mclendon [00:39:41] Also, he's got to look hot in a if it's, like, perfectly tailored.
Annie Jones [00:39:45] Do you think he's handsome? I think he's handsome.
Hunter Mclendon [00:39:47] I think, yeah. It's funny because like the first.
Annie Jones [00:39:50] He's blonde, which is not my personal preference. So no offense.
Hunter Mclendon [00:39:54] Yeah, I get it. But I will say the first time I read it, I pictured someone that you and I both know who is older and who has like a little bit of thinning hair, who has, you know what I'm talking about, I won't say there, but yes. And so at that point, I was like, no. But this time I did the thing that I typically do, which is I was like, could I play this character? And so I imagined myself.[Crosstalk]
Annie Jones [00:40:22] Because he's tall. It talks very much about how tall he is. Now you've got that CrossFit bod, and I don't think Arthur's just messing around with rubber bands. And so I feel like you two look very different.
Hunter Mclendon [00:40:34] I mean, listen, I can like, I can do the Charlize Theron thing and just, like, stop freaking out for a minute. It's like.
[00:40:42] At 50, maybe this will be accurate. But if we go, yeah, he's blond with like short hair on the side and longer on the top, I think you could play.
Hunter Mclendon [00:40:50] It was so funny. Listen, as soon as I saw that my head, I was like, it's so funny. Once that picture was in my head, I kept thinking, I bet Arthur's attractive.
Annie Jones [00:40:58] And to be fair, not to be even weirder about it. But I feel like there's a world in which. Because Freddy to me seems shorter. And he's a teacher. And so, look, you and Tyler, this could be your Halloween costume, except I think Freddy is Hispanic. So. Sorry, Tyler.
Hunter Mclendon [00:41:14] Yeah, sorry. It's okay. My. My ex-husband. It'll be good.
Annie Jones [00:41:19] Let me see if I have any other questions. So there is a sequel to this book coming out on September 20th. It's called Less is Lost and it is an Americana road trip. It sounds like it sounds a little bit like it's going to be Travels with Charlie, which is a book I love by John Steinbeck. Let me ask you this. And I just want a yes or no. And then you can expound. But first I just want your gut reaction. Does this book need a sequel?
Hunter Mclendon [00:41:51] No.
Annie Jones [00:41:52] The answer is no.
Hunter Mclendon [00:41:52] No. Right.
Annie Jones [00:41:54] No. Right. Did it perfectly.
Hunter Mclendon [00:41:56] Right. It did it perfectly. But, it's so funny because, like I said earlier, like both this and the Pulitzer finalist, The Idiot, they both have sequels out this year. It's the thing is so funny and interesting.
Annie Jones [00:42:07] It is. And it's almost like guys will and I look, I trust these authors. I am sure they're fabulous. But I keep thinking about the people on the Internet who want, like, season three. No, we don't. No we don't everybody. She told that story and she told it beautifully. We don't need more.
Hunter Mclendon [00:42:22] Well, here to counter that, recently I was rereading Jack because I realized that I did not remember any of it when I read it the first time. The Marilynne Robinson Because I'm actually I'm writing about the quartet right now. And I was thinking about like, I find each of those books perfect in their own way. And then I also just read Oh, William! By Elizabeth Strout.
Annie Jones [00:42:44] Yes.
Hunter Mclendon [00:42:45] And let me tell you, I went into that because, like you and I both you and I loved Lucy Barton.
Annie Jones [00:42:50] Yes.
Hunter Mclendon [00:42:51] I liked Anything Is Possible. I didn't love it as much. I like this one, but I read. Did you read Oh William! yet?
Annie Jones [00:42:57] Yeah, it. It was one of my favorite books of 2021, whatever year it came out.
Hunter Mclendon [00:43:01] I was like, why did I just now read this beautiful study? I did not think that I needed any more Lucy Barton until I read Oh William! And then I said, Oh, I did.
Annie Jones [00:43:12] And it's better.
Hunter Mclendon [00:43:13] It is better.
Annie Jones [00:43:13] I think it's better than Lucy Barton.
Hunter Mclendon [00:43:15] I agree.
Annie Jones [00:43:16] Look and I will say I think I'm going to read less is what is it? Less is more or less is lost. [Crosstalk].
Hunter Mclendon [00:43:25] Yeah, I would say [Inaudible].
Annie Jones [00:43:27] Yeah. So I will read it. I'm a little nervous to read it because I kind of feel like I left Arthur right where. Look, this goes back to me and my aversion to sequels anyway. Like, I just feel like I like this characters. They can stay where they are. I can imagine them living their lives. I don't need a continuation.
Hunter Mclendon [00:43:44] You know what I think it is? I think that you have an aversion to sequels because most people do sequels for money.
Annie Jones [00:43:51] Yeah.
Hunter Mclendon [00:43:52] And I think that when people do a good sequel, it's so rare because it's like, well, like, I mean, I think about how there's been two sequels now, I think to what's it called, The Devil Wears Prada. And it's the first sequel, Revenge Wears Prada. That was definitely a money grab. But the second sequel was focusing on Emily Blunt's character. And I think that that one was actually like a really good, fun book. But I think it was the reason why it works was because it wasn't trying to just, like, recapture the magic.
Annie Jones [00:44:22] Yes, yes. This is like. Yes, we yeah, it just reminds me, Jordan and I, we have a person in our life who like a magical moment will happen. And the next time we're together, they're trying to recreate that magical moment. And we're like, That's so lovely. We already did it. Like, it just. It was magical for a reason. Like, it was magical because it was a one time thing. We don't have to recreate the magic every time.
Hunter Mclendon [00:44:48] We're not Walmart. We're not distributors like calm down. We can, like, have new things each time.
Annie Jones [00:44:54] Yes. So I feel like we've kind of filled this out. But one question we talk about when we do Backlist Book Club is what books belong on a book flight or on an end cap with Less. So we've mentioned some already. I do think again, I know people are eye rolling about it, but I do think Eat, Pray, Love belongs there. You mentioned Fleishman Is In Trouble, which I think might be the best comp I've heard. Good job. What else?
[00:45:19] Do you think that a book by Stephen Riley?
Annie Jones [00:45:22] Yes. I put that on mine. I put the uncle.
Hunter Mclendon [00:45:25] That's what I was thinking.
Annie Jones [00:45:26] I put the uncle because. And not just because they're both gay lit, but because the main characters to me have real similarities. There's a certain curmudgeon. There's a slight curmudgeon vibe to Arthur.
Hunter Mclendon [00:45:37] Did you read his book, The Editor?
Annie Jones [00:45:39] Yes, I did.
Hunter Mclendon [00:45:40] Do you feel like that might be a good comp?
Annie Jones [00:45:42] Yes. I did not love that book that much.
Hunter Mclendon [00:45:44] That's okay.
Annie Jones [00:45:46] You can probably see who lives. I think that book is fine.
Hunter Mclendon [00:45:49] Yeah. The uncle was where I was won over. I was like, okay.
Annie Jones [00:45:52] Yes. That's where I thought that was the book Stephen Riley was meant to write. Maybe I'm wrong. You know what cam? It occurred to me and this was not classified as gay lit. But I think Frederick Bachman there's a world in which Frederick Bachman could have written this book. And Britt-Marie Was Here. Britt-Marie Was Here is one that I would think would be similar.
Hunter Mclendon [00:46:13] I'm going to also put The Hours, because they're both a store of consciousness, like definitely inspired by like The Virginia Woolf. Who wrote Ulysses? Gosh.
Annie Jones [00:46:23] James Joyce.
Hunter Mclendon [00:46:24] James Joyce. Thank you. Like James Joyce proves that. They're both definitely pulling from those same things. I think they're like. They're almost like the opposite sides of each other. Like once tragedy that one is comedy.
Annie Jones [00:46:37] Good job out there. I think I'd also put you know, if we're talking about travel books, then I think I'd also do Traveling with Pomegranates, which is one of my favorite travel books by Sue Monk Kidd and Ann Kidd Taylor. Actually think it's better than a lot of smart kids fiction though that might be an unpopular opinion. And then World Travel by Anthony Bourdain. My friend Betsey always does these on her Instagram. She does. What does she call them? Content flights where it's not just a book, but she's also pairing it with TV shows and stuff. And so I think Stranger than Fiction would be my movie comp. And I know this sounds silly, but there's a great look. It's a great, lovely family show on Netflix called Somebody's Feed Phil brought me a lot of joy during the pandemic, and the way Phil is kind of gangly, long arms, long legs and like trotting across the globe reminds me a little bit of our goals.
Hunter Mclendon [00:47:35] For a movie. Listen, I don't think it's for you, but there's this movie I love. It's called I Love You, Phillip morris.
Annie Jones [00:47:41] Yes, I've heard of it.
Hunter Mclendon [00:47:43] Yeah, it has Jim Carrey and Ewan McGregor. And I find that it is it. Listen. It is a hard R in some places, but it is delightful and charming. I mean, they're literally in prison and it is still funny and happy and like at one point you think someone's going to die and they're so happy and I love it. Which. I didn't mean to ask you very quick because we didn't talk about this, but did you? Because I think we've talked about before it we can love a book and not like a character. Did you find Less likable?
Annie Jones [00:48:14] Yes. I do.
Hunter Mclendon [00:48:17] Do you know what? I loved him. But I'm curious because I loved him for the reasons why I feel like it would be complicated for you to love him.
Annie Jones [00:48:24] I loved him because. You like messy people? Messy characters. I think you like messy people, too. Yeah, I like messy characters. Who are.
Hunter Mclendon [00:48:39] You like the underdog?
Annie Jones [00:48:40] Yeah. Yeah. And I thought Arthur is messy, and he makes decisions I wouldn't make. But this is somebody who's actively trying to live his life. He's not letting life happen to him. He is determined. He's not going. He's not Julia Roberts saying this and going to ruin his boyfriend's wedding. Instead, he's like, you know what? I'm going to be a grown up. I'm going to go travel the world. There are some I mean, there are some outlandishly funny parts of this book. I'm now I'm all of a sudden remembering the whole scene in India where he's at a Christian, he's accidentally at a Christian retreat center, which made me laugh out loud, like he walks into a room and there's like a giant last supper painting. I just I found him and his reactions to life. Like, I thought, man, I'd really like to be friends with Arthur. I think he would make life entertaining.
Hunter Mclendon [00:49:33] I definitely agree. Also, I just so I don't really see this is, like, really much of a spoiler at all, I don't think. But like he is a person who has cheated in past relationships.
Annie Jones [00:49:43] Yes.
Hunter Mclendon [00:49:44] And I know some people don't like that. I love a cheater. If you ruin your life. Good for you. I love it. Talk to me about it. When Anna Karenina did it, I was like, yes, keep going.
Annie Jones [00:49:59] Tell me more. And I was like, wow, what a horrible move.
Hunter Mclendon [00:50:02] I know. I have yet to cheat in my marriage. But ever since is I'm like you do you do you.
Annie Jones [00:50:10] Look, it's interesting to read about I mean, it's entertaining. It's entertaining. And look, I think, to be fair, it felt like Arthur was in open relationships. It did not feel like they were exclusive in every way.
Hunter Mclendon [00:50:24] Yeah. No, that's the thing, too. I was like, because it's funny because I think that his guilt stemmed from not necessarily like I think that it's that whole thing where you stop, you stop seeking out, like enjoyment and fun and you start seeking like comfort and yes, emotional resonance with somebody else in that way.
Annie Jones [00:50:44] And he seemed like a character that was prone to some anxiety. I love the quote that I led with at the top of the episode because I thought it was so profound like that somebody saw in him this bravery and Arthur was like, I'm not brave. But then it's like, well, maybe I am. Maybe if I live my life with this anxiety or with this pressure to please or if I live my life that way. And so turns out buying a stick of gum is the same level of anxiety as like getting an airplane ticket. Like, I just thought that was so lovely. And I loved, I won't spoil the unnamed narrator. How long did it take you to realize who the unnamed narrator was? Just out of curiosity?
Hunter Mclendon [00:51:29] I think I sort of like got the hint, like about whatever. I guess like the second time it mentioned.
Annie Jones [00:51:35] I think about midway through, I thought, I know who this is. But see, I think that was also especially lovely, which is while I will be very curious who the narrator is in the sequel because it was so wonderful to see Arthur clearly how Arthur sees himself, but also through the eyes of someone who views Arthur with tenderness. It felt. This is okay. I'm so sorry. You bring your gayness to the table, and I guess I bring my Christianity to the table. I don't know. But it feels like it felt like what a third person omniscient, like, might see and think about you that, like, do you see yourself as a struggling, flailing human? But a god-like creature might see you as someone who's trying and who's brave. And I love this.
Hunter Mclendon [00:52:30] Listen. Yeah, it's so funny that right the other day, somebody. One of my close friends. Like, we were talking, and I made a joke about being a bad person and he said, I don't think that at all. He said, I think you're a really lovely person and you are endlessly kind. And I literally started crying because I was like, why would you say that? Like, I was like. But yeah, I think that we do see ourselves in the worst ways. And then like when we hear how somebody else sees us, it is like a very like.
Annie Jones [00:52:53] It's so tender to hear somebody else see something in us that we can't see ourselves. And I really did love that narrative aspect. And I just I don't know how it will work in a sequel, but we'll see.
Hunter Mclendon [00:53:08] And when you talk about, like, the ending being perfect, even, that's the last line.
Annie Jones [00:53:13] I like Arthur. I will probably read the sequel and especially now, because now I feel like, I'm invested. Like I just finished this book, like, and I hope if nothing else, I also hope the sequel encourages people to read the first book, which we'll close maybe with this thought, which is I like to it like I googled that Google Pilgrim at Tinker Creek when we were finishing and found some really lovely articles. There's a great we'll link to it in the show notes. There's a great book club guide found in the New York Times, which I thought was really helpful. If you're going to read this in a book club setting. But reviews on this book were quite mixed, like I think the New York Times gave it a really favorable review. But man look and Good Reads is always a little bit of a wild place to spend your time, but the opinions on Good Reads were usually all over the place. And so I know there are some people for whom this book was clearly not, but I hope that the sequel inspires people to give it another try because I really I was so pleasantly surprised. I thought, well, this is a delightful reading experience.
Hunter Mclendon [00:54:23] I agree.
Annie Jones [00:54:24] Hunter, thank you so much for chatting about Less with me.
Hunter Mclendon [00:54:28] I'll always do more and not less.
Annie Jones [00:54:32] That's beautiful. This week I'm reading Dinosaurs by Lydia Millet. Hunter, what are you reading?
Hunter Mclendon [00:54:40] I'm reading Paul by Daisy Lafarge.
Annie Jones [00:54:44] From the Front Porch is a weekly podcast production of The Bookshelf, an independent bookstore in Thomasville, Georgia. You can follow The Bookshelf's daily happenings on Instagram @bookshelftville, and all the books from today's episode can be purchased online through our store website, bookshelfthomasville.com. A full transcript of today's episode can be found at fromthefrontporchpodcast.com.
[00:55:05] Special thanks to Studio D Podcast Production for production of From the Front Porch and for our theme music, which sets the perfect, warm and friendly tone for our Thursday conversations.
Executive Producers(Read their own names) [00:55:14] Our executive producers of today's episode are Donna Hetchler, Angie Erickson, Cammy Tidwell. Nicole Marsee. Wendi Jenkins, Ari Johnson, Kate Johnston Tucker.
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