Episode 451 || Bookmarked with Annie & Hunter: Empire Falls
This week on From the Front Porch, it’s another installment of Bookmarked with Annie & Hunter! In Bookmarked episodes, Annie and Hunter read or re-read an award-winning book that came out several years prior. This time on Bookmarked, they’re discussing Empire Falls by Richard Russo. You can purchase your copy here.
To purchase the books mentioned in this episode, visit our website (type “Episode 451” into the search bar and tap enter to easily find the books mentioned in this episode):
Empire Falls by Richard Russo
Tinkers by Paul Harding
Interpreter of Maladies by Jhumpa Lahiri
Bleak House by Charles Dickens
Thank you to this week’s sponsor, Visit Thomasville. Fall is a wonderful time to see Thomasville, Georgia! If it’s time to hit the road for a quick getaway, we’re exactly what you’re looking for! You can rekindle your spark, explore historical sites, indulge in dining out, shop at amazing independent stores, and finally relax and unwind. There’s no better getaway than Thomasville! Whether you live close by or are passing through, we hope you'll visit beautiful Thomasville, Georgia – it’s worth the trip! Plan your visit at ThomasvilleGa.com.
From the Front Porch is a weekly podcast production of The Bookshelf, an independent bookstore in South Georgia. You can follow The Bookshelf’s daily happenings on Instagram at @bookshelftville, and all the books from today’s episode can be purchased online through our store website, www.bookshelfthomasville.com.
A full transcript of today’s episode can be found below.
Special thanks to Dylan and his team at Studio D Podcast Production for sound and editing and for our theme music, which sets the perfect warm and friendly tone for our Thursday conversations.
This week, Annie is reading Dolls of Our Lives by Mary Mahoney and Allison Horrocks. Hunter is reading Hawk Mountain by Conner Habib.
If you liked what you heard in today’s episode, tell us by leaving a review on Apple Podcasts. You can also support us on Patreon, where you can access bonus content, monthly live Porch Visits with Annie, our monthly live Patreon Book Club with Bookshelf staffers, Conquer a Classic episodes with Hunter, and more. Just go to patreon.com/fromthefrontporch.
We’re so grateful for you, and we look forward to meeting back here next week.
Our Executive Producers are...Ashley Ferrell, Cammy Tidwell, Chanta Combs, Chantalle C, Kate O’Connell, Kristin May, Laurie Johnson, Linda Lee Drozt, Martha, Nicole Marsee, Stacy Laue, Stephanie Dean, Susan Hulings, and Wendi Jenkins.
Transcript:
[squeaky porch swing] Welcome to From the Front Porch, a conversational podcast about books, small business, and life in the South. [music plays out]
“After all, what was the whole wide world but a place for people to yearn for their hearts’ impossible desires, for those desires to become entrenched in defiance of logic, plausibility, and even the passage of time, as eternal as polished marble?” - Richard Russo, Empire Falls
[as music fades out] I’m Annie Jones, owner of The Bookshelf, an independent bookstore in beautiful downtown Thomasville, Georgia, and this week, I’m joined by frequent From the Front Porch guest Hunter McLendon McLendon (though you might know him as @ShelfbyShelf on Instagram). If you’re a regular listener, you probably know that one of our main goals is to grow the show to 10,000 listeners. We are getting so close and getting about 9000 listeners per episode. A lot of that is thanks to everyone who has left a review. Here’s one of my favorite recent reviews, from Alex:
Thursdays are the best now I look forward to this podcast every week. Even if I choose not to add any title to my TBR list after an episode(a rare occurrence, as my tastes are pretty similar with Annie’s!), just listening to Annie and her guests talk about their reading experiences, what they loved about a particular book, or why they like the written word in general makes me want to make more time for my reading life. Annie and Hunter McLendon’s deep dive conversations are the best. I love love loved their conversation about Cormac McCarthy’s The Road. They help me remember why I love reading so much and also make me want to challenge myself to read outside my usual genres, or stick with something that’s a little challenging, but worthwhile.
Annie Jones [00:01:46] Well, Alex, you are in for a treat today because that is what today's episode is going to be all about. If you have not left a review, all you have to do is open up the podcast app on your phone, look for from the front porch, scroll down until you see, write a review and then tell us what you think. Now back to the show. Hi, Hunter McLendon.
Hunter McLendon [00:02:06] Hello.
Annie Jones [00:02:07] So we're back with an episode that we are calling this episode series Bookmarked with Annie and Hunter McLendon. The artist formerly known as Backlist Book Club, I think was what we called it. And before that, it was love it or loathe it. So if you've been around as long as Love It or Loathe It, congratulations. But basically Hunter McLendon and I love to do mini book club. I'd like to think we would do it with or without a podcast to host these conversations on. But this year and last year, we really have focused on Pulitzer winning titles. So earlier this year, we read Tinkers and discussed it on From the Front porch. Then we read Interpreter of Maladies, which we discussed on the podcast. And today we are talking about the Pulitzer winning novel Empire Falls by Richard Russo. We wanted listeners to be able to engage with these episodes without feeling like they had to do any homework first. So our goal is that these episodes are accessible, whether you have read the book already or are inspired to read it after listening to our conversation. So we're going to do this spoiler free; though, this is a book where there are some spoilery conversations and we're going to save that for the end, kind of like we used to back in the day. Okay. Hunter McLendon, what did you think about this one? Had you read this before?
Hunter McLendon [00:03:19] I had never read Richard Russo before. And I own almost all of his books because that's just what I do.
Annie Jones [00:03:26] You collect?
Hunter McLendon [00:03:27] Yeah, but this was obviously because I love to read award winning books. This is one that stayed at the top of my list, and I have three copies of Empire Falls, and still have not read it.
Annie Jones [00:03:36] Oh, my gosh.
Hunter McLendon [00:03:36] Yeah.
Annie Jones [00:03:37] You just picked it up for various places.
Hunter McLendon [00:03:41] I used a tattered paperback copy that I got for a dollar somewhere whenever I was really poor. And then I had a $4 paperback that I got when I was less poor. And then I had an $8 used hardcover that I got when I was medium poor.
Annie Jones [00:03:55] Okay, look at you. Just moving on up.
Hunter McLendon [00:03:58] Yeah.
Annie Jones [00:03:58] Moving on up in the world. Look, if you listened to our episode about Interpreter of Maladies, you will know that we had a different book picked out for this episode, and that was on purpose. We wanted a thin book. Was it an Adam Johnson book? I don't remember now.
Hunter McLendon [00:04:15] No, it was Denis Johnson Train Dreams.
Annie Jones [00:04:18] Okay. So that was our original plan. So I'm so sorry. But we did change the plan because about a month ago I was answering some questions for some Patreon supporters. And one of the questions that came to my attention was, "Annie, what books would you recommend for people who love Gilmore Girls?" And so I had typed up my little list. I had some what I thought were really great recommendations. And then I thought, well, I'm sure the Internet has something to say about this. And, boy, did the Internet have something to say about this. There are all kinds of listicles and articles where lots of different bookstore grammars and book bloggers talk about what you could read if you like Gilmore Girls. And most of the books that I had thought of, I found them on one list or another. But one list came up and mentioned Empire Falls, which I was not familiar with, and I thought it kind of came up as like a more literary option. So a lot of the books being recommended were romcoms or maybe more commercial lit or women's fiction. And so I thought, well, this looks interesting. And so I especially ordered it through the Bookshelf, and I was at Barnes and Noble one day because book lovers love books no matter where they are. And so I was at Barnes Noble and they had a copy of Empire Falls, and I flipped it open and I thought, oh, no, I am not going to be able to do this. The print was really tiny. I do not know what your $1, $4 and $8 editions look like, but the paperback that I read from that print is super tiny. The margins are small and italics everywhere. Italics everywhere.
Hunter McLendon [00:05:49] Yeah.
Annie Jones [00:05:50] And I'm not a scientist, but I do feel like there is scientific evidence that it is hard to read italicized font and to use it for something other than emphasis feels aggressive to me. And so I thought, well, there is no way I'm going to be able to read this book. So I put it on the shelf at Barnes Noble. Then my copy came in and I started it and I loved it. And I was surprised by that because again, on the longer side, it is not particularly plot driven-- and we're going to talk about that. It took me probably a full week to finish, and I'd love to know if your reading experience was different from mine. It may have been, but I enjoyed it over a period of several days, which is unusual for me. I'm typically a binger and even the italicized parts, by the end I was like, sure, this makes sense. I mean, I would change that personally if I was reprinting this novel. I would make adjustments for the reader, but that was kind of what led me to the book. And then I finished it and I thought, I have to talk about this with somebody. And the somebody that I frequently think of is Hunter McLendon. And so I'm pretty sure I texted you immediately and was like, "Have you read this? Can we change our podcast episode? Would you be willing to read this?" So tell me what your initial thoughts were just about like structure and finding the book and finally picking it up? And did you feel the same as I did about italics?
Hunter McLendon [00:07:11] Maybe I'm exaggerating, but I feel like the entire prologue is--
Annie Jones [00:07:16] It is long. Yeah the entire prologue, which is 16 pages is italicized.
Hunter McLendon [00:07:24] Okay. I was about to like double that because the book just feel like-- and this is not a bad rep. It does feel long when you're reading it.
Annie Jones [00:07:32] Yes, agreed.
Hunter McLendon [00:07:33] Let me tell you something. An italicized 16 page prologue, I was like, for real? Okay.
Annie Jones [00:07:38] Okay. That's exactly what I thought. I thought what? And let me tell you something. I have never felt like such a [inaudible]. I was like, "Wow, I am too dumb for this." I was about to say no, like, I can't. When I did, I put it back at Barnes Noble. When it came in from the Bookshelf, I was like, I'm not doing this. It felt like such an intense way to start a book that was supposed to give me Gilmore Girls vibes, you know?
Hunter McLendon [00:08:06] Yes, absolutely. And it's so funny too because I started reading it, and the thing is, I understand why they say Gilmore Girls because this is truly so much of this is a portrait of a place. And you really are immersed in this world. But I'm not typically as invested in those kind of books. But even just after the prologue, I was like begrudgingly-- like three pages in I was like, okay, I guess I'm reading these italicized words. And then by the end I was like, "Oh, okay, well, I guess I'll keep going." And it charms you. It's a very charming book.
Annie Jones [00:08:45] Yes. So it's so funny. My reading experience was so very similar because I love a solo reading lunch. I highly recommend if you're ever feeling like you cannot handle the world or anything in it. So I was sitting at my favorite restaurant in Tallahassee and I thought, I'm going to use this lunch and I'm going to read this prologue, and then I'm going to decide as a reader if this is for me or not. Like it was going to be kind of like my make or break. And it was great because I had the whole lunch I had devoted. I was like, "Don't leave this table until you've read this prologue." And I was weirdly hooked. And let me be clear. So if you were not familiar with Empire Falls, this book is about a man named Miles Robie, and he lives in this town of Empire Falls. I believe it's Maine, right? Empire Falls Maine. And Miles runs the Empire Falls Diner. The book is really almost like a Year in the Life or it spans several months in the life of this small town, in the life of this man who's kind of the center of the town. Certainly the Gilmore Girls comparisons come from the fact that Miles is very much a Luke Danes type of character. He's recently or still in the process of getting divorced. He has a young daughter named Tick. So, yeah, it's all about this kind of quirky cast of characters.
[00:09:58] And the prologue is a little bit of the history. You think the book is about Miles, and you start the book, and it's about the Whiting family and essentially the history of this family in Empire Falls and the impact this very wealthy family has had. It's almost like while reading, Richard Russo has put a veil and slowly chapter by chapter he's lifting the veil. I became very invested in the Whiting family story. And I was like, okay, I am centered in this. I understand where we are. And then the book opens, chapter one opens, and it's not about the Whiting family at all. And you're a little bit like, "Wait, but why did I just put in all this work?" This is a question I had for later, but I'll go and bring it up now. Maybe it's because you and I we're going to talk about it forever and ever until our deathbeds. But we just finished Bleak House by Charles Dickens. And maybe, I'll say this, I wonder if Bleak House stretched my reading muscles enough so that when I opened Empire Falls and there's this wide cast of characters and it's about one family, but then actually it's about two other families. I wonder if honestly Dickens prepared me for that and made me more amenable to this book. Do you feel similarly?
Hunter McLendon [00:11:13] Yeah, actually, it's funny you say that because you and I have talked a lot about Bleak House and what it looks like as a work as an overall novel and everything. And I was going to say when I was reading Empire Falls, something I thought a lot about actually is how we've strayed so far from this type of novel. You know what I mean? Like, we don't really see this kind of book happening. And in the same way that I don't think that we see books like Bleak House really happen anymore. In some ways, that's I think for the better. In some ways it's for the worse. Because I do think I was reading Empire Falls and I was, like, I understand why it won the Pulitzer. Because it's such a fully realized novel that's doing so many interesting things.
Annie Jones [00:11:58] So many things. I kept thinking about it the whole time. I thought about it obviously as a reader, but I also thought about it as a writer and I thought, I cannot believe it was one of those books where I thought-- and this is my only book by Richard Russo that I've ever read. I think I would like to read more. But this felt genius level to me where so many things are happening and there are so many parts. And I thought, did he have an outlet? I kept wondering, how did he do this? You know this because you're my friend, I am very invested in a book about a place. I love books about a specific place. I love quiet novels. This book is an extremely quiet novel where you just are kind of like following Richard Russo and wondering, "Where are you going to go, buddy? Where are you going to take Miles? Where are you going to take us?" And I just was so deeply invested. I loved that you said this because it's absolutely true, the book feels long. I did not finish this and think, wow, I could have read so much more. No, the book felt long, but it also felt like exactly the right length and it felt like exactly the story he set out to tell.
Hunter McLendon [00:13:14] Oh, I think it's very smartly paced. And it's so interesting because talking about doing that comparison of the Bleak House, I feel like I've talked a lot about this both on podcast and just one on one with you. But I always feel like every book I read is truly preparing me for other books in the world. I constantly think that's the reward you get for reading really widely. Is that it helps you to really embrace everything as it comes. And so somewhat frustrations with a book like Bleak House that draws things out a little bit longer than I would like. Or even like a really short book that I read-- like two different books recently-- that were like less than 200 pages, but they kind of felt a little bit too brisk for me to where they kind of lost their staying power. And so I think that's the thing. It's that this book it's not so slow that you're like, "Oh my gosh, like, pick it up." But it's also not so fast that it's forgetful.
Annie Jones [00:14:10] Am I wrong in thinking? I mean, I have some comp titles. We always do this, I think, or we've done this in past episodes. Almost immediately after this, I read a book, a Europa title that came out this year called The Road to Dalton. It was recommended to me by some podcast listeners, actually, and it was fantastic. Oh my gosh, I loved it so much. And if you like Empire Falls or if you like the types of stories we're talking about, I think you'll love that book. But the other book that comes to mind-- and I would love to know your gut reaction-- weirdly, The Goldfinch came to mind.
Hunter McLendon [00:14:42] Yes, absolutely.
Annie Jones [00:14:44] And I don't know if that's because, again, of the length and the pacing. And Donna Tartt is doing so many different things in that novel, but somehow they all work together. And that was another book that I felt similarly about.
Hunter McLendon [00:14:57] It's so funny because The Goldfinch is often referred to as being very Dickensian, right?
Annie Jones [00:15:03] Yes! Oh, my gosh. I didn't even do that on purpose.
Hunter McLendon [00:15:07] This to me is where it gets really exciting when we talk about like the landscape of literature as a whole and how all works are intentionally or unintentionally informing each other. And, yeah, I completely see that. And I also think that's a lot of Pulitzer because they both won the Pulitzer. And I think that a lot of times specifically for American literature, we tend to be really drawn to these sprawling, almost like-- well, it's funny because this book does not really have a strong plot. It's really a very like-- I don't know if episodic is the right word. But there's just these clumps of things that are happening.
Annie Jones [00:15:46] Kind of. Yeah. And a little bit vignette esque.
Hunter McLendon [00:15:50] Yes. But it's still tethered enough, right? There's still enough... Yes.
Annie Jones [00:15:57] Yes. Everything totally makes sense. I mean that's one thing I wanted us to talk about, was about the structure. So we've talked about the prologue being this kind of italicized history piece of-- the history of this town, essentially. But there are other italicized chapters throughout the book that again, I was a little bit like, oh, is this going to take me out of the rhythm? Is this going to distract me? And there are flashbacks. You get to know Miles and I think I will remember this plot piece, this storyline for a very long time. So Miles lives in a small town. His brother has come back home. Their mother wanted more, especially for Miles. And he thinks back and we get to see he loves Martha's Vineyard. And we realize that that's because his mother took him to Martha's Vineyard as like a summer vacation. I do not believe this is a spoiler. I'll be as generic as possible. But basically Miles goes with his mother, without their father, without his father, without her husband to Martha's Vineyard. And he thinks it's because his dad's a drunk. His dad is around very much. And he has this really fond memory of this week spent at the vineyard with his mom. And then a mysterious man shows up and takes his mom out to dinner. And you as an adult reader are like, Miles, we all know where this is going. Where perhaps, maybe his mother had a romantic relationship that Miles didn't know about. And how Richard Russ painted that picture and painted that trip, I was so incredibly invested. And that's what I mean by vignette because that is outside what is happening at Empire Falls. That is outside of what's happening with the characters. But it so much points to who Miles is and who he has become. And you totally know why Richard Russo included this really important vignette and little look into Miles's history. I thought it was brilliant.
Hunter McLendon [00:17:54] That's a great example of I don't know if you've this whole thing about film critics and how there's the film bros who are very into the Marvel thing, which is fine, but it's funny because they'll talk about how that scene didn't serve any purpose so it should be cut. That kind of thing.
Annie Jones [00:18:10] Yes.
Hunter McLendon [00:18:10] And how sometimes there are scenes-- is it really moving the plot forward? Maybe not necessarily in any relevant way, not in any big or major important way. But it is telling you so much about this character, these people, this world, whatever. It tells you a lot about how people perceive certain actions morally and everything. That's the thing though. Sometimes it's like something doesn't have to serve a plot purpose to serve a greater purpose in the ideas that you're exploring.
Annie Jones [00:18:44] And I'd like to be clear because frequently on this podcast, I talk about how I believe my phrase that I use the most often is I wish this book had had an editor or I wish this book had been edited down. I say that all the time. I think that could be attributed to a lot of things. I don't know if it's like my journalism background where it's, like, keep it tight, or if it's my own lack of attention span. You know what I mean? I think it could be for all kinds of different reasons. But what I want to say about Empire Falls is everything mattered. And I was invested and this was longform storytelling. Like you had to trust Richard Russo. Like, okay, where are you going with this weird chapter that feels out of place? Oh, I see. Like, you really had to trust. And I'm afraid that the way I'm describing it makes it sound like it was a challenging read. It wasn't. I really loved it. I found it quite easy to follow and to become invested. I can't think of another book like this other than the titles we're kind of talking around where an author has been given the room to be sprawling. And I think by giving him room, he was able to create something pretty brilliant.
Hunter McLendon [00:19:59] Also really funny as a little side note, somebody on Bookstagram asked me what I was reading whenever I was reading this, and I was like, oh, I'm reading Empire Falls. And they were like, ugh.
Annie Jones [00:20:09] Oh, interesting.
Hunter McLendon [00:20:11] And I was like, I'm really enjoying it. And she said that she felt like it told and didn't show. And she also said that, which I don't necessarily agree. I think that it shows and tells, but I think it's intentional. I think it's part of the style choice. And I don't think that's bad. I think we've all been trained to be like, it's bad if it's explaining something. No, I think both sometimes can actually really be helpful and it's fine. But she also said, she goes, "It's just there's so much misogyny."
Annie Jones [00:20:44] Oh my gosh. Is there misogyny? Did I miss it?
Hunter McLendon [00:20:47] Okay, so here's the thing. Here's what I think it is. I'm going to go out on a limb and say that I think there is misogyny, but I don't think it's unintentional.
Annie Jones [00:20:56] Okay.
Hunter McLendon [00:20:57] Because I think that this is telling a story. So somebody criticized how-- because what is the ex-wife name? Jeanine.
Annie Jones [00:21:06] Yes.
Hunter McLendon [00:21:08] And they were criticizing how she becomes this terrible person after she loses all this weight.
Annie Jones [00:21:15] Yes.
Hunter McLendon [00:21:16] Miles's ex-wife. Things like that. Like how all of the women, I think, except for Tick and one other, she said those only two that were treated well.
Annie Jones [00:21:28] Oh, interesting.
Hunter McLendon [00:21:31] I asked, I said, "What do you think that most of the men are treated?" I think they're also kind of like--.
Annie Jones [00:21:37] Yeah, they're not great.
Hunter McLendon [00:21:38] Yeah, but that's the thing, though. I don't think that most of the people in this book are great people. And I kind of like that.
Annie Jones [00:21:46] Right. Even Miles who's our kind of guy through the story. And, again, if we're going back to the Gilmore Girls at all, really, truly, he reminds me so much of Luke Danes. And as much as I love Luke Danes, as much as I love Gilmore Girls, Luke Danes is not a perfect character. He is not like the perfect romantic ideal or something like that. He's incredibly gruff. He has interesting views and relationships, and I think Miles is certainly supposed to be who we see Empire Falls through his eyes. We see the town through his eyes. But he also is flawed, like his marriage is falling apart.
Hunter McLendon [00:22:23] Yes.
Annie Jones [00:22:23] Even though his wife is maybe who had extramarital affairs, you can see that Miles have his own issues. And looking back, which this is interesting because we've talked about this as it relates to Dickens, like his female characters. Can Dickens write a woman? Like that constant kind of debate I think that comes up. And I can definitely see that critique because this is Miles book. The women are side characters, so are the other male side characters. But Miles's mother in law whose name escapes me at this moment and maybe that is a problem, Tick and even Mrs. Whiting, or Grace, Miles's Mom, I would argue what these are, it reminds me of how the women are in East of Eden. Where these are just complicated people. And it's not just the women, like Miles's Dad is a drunk guy. There's a really memorable priest character. Of course, I'm interested in the priest character, Father Mark. And then there's an elderly priest with dementia. There's this schoolteacher character. They're all different characters. And all of them, I don't know how he did it, but they're incredibly well-rounded and interesting to me. I would push back probably a little bit on the misogyny critique. I don't think it's entirely wrong. I just think all of the characters are a little bit flawed.
Hunter McLendon [00:23:54] So this is like a two pronged question. One I wanted to ask, do you think that sometimes when we see a man writing women, that we just don't really consider the way that he's writing about men? And so maybe there's like a little more focus to see if he's getting the women right. And so maybe there's like a [inaudible]. I think about that. But also if you think about the time this was written, I would also love to know if women who are reading this at that point if they also found it as misogynistic maybe, because I think a lot about the culture at large. Because you think about something like if you watch old episodes of America's Next Top model or if you read even a lot of-- listen, I'll read books or Gilmore Girls written [inaudible] Amy Sherman-Palladino, the amount of fatphobia in that show is--.
Annie Jones [00:24:40] Excessive.
Hunter McLendon [00:24:41] Yes. And so I recognize these criticisms. I'm not trying to negate them or say that they're not valid criticisms, but I do think that when we consider that it's not that long ago this book was written, but also the culture has changed so much in such a short time.
Annie Jones [00:24:58] So drastically. It was published in 2001, I believe.
Hunter McLendon [00:25:00] Yes. And that's like a significant little chunk.
Annie Jones [00:25:03] Yes.
Hunter McLendon [00:25:04] And so I wonder if people in that point in time were thinking the same things. And so I don't know. Those are the sort of things that go through my head. And I'm not trying to say that like-- I think it's just really easy to have these critiques with our current lens.
Annie Jones [00:25:19] Yes. Well, and which we always talk about on the podcast and then in our own personal conversations, it's just something that comes up frequently. The first question that you asked, I do think I as a woman reader, certainly if I start a book and think, oh, and then I flip to the cover and see that a man wrote it, I have frequently noticed-- and I actually think there are some really great male writers who write women really well. It's super annoying. J. Ryan Stradal comes to mind. But sometimes I will think, wow, this woman character is super moralistic, or the way that this writer writes about her is so sexualized. And it will frequently I assume because it's a male writer. And so I think for this story if Gilmore Girls belongs to Lorelai and Rory, Empire Falls belongs to Miles. And so it wasn't so much that I felt like, oh, Richard Russo doesn't know how to write women because I actually think Tick is pretty interesting. But I just don't think it's theirs. The book doesn't belong to them, and I'm okay with that. The book belongs to Miles and it belongs to the town. It belongs to the place. But that is fascinating. Also, sometimes when I hear critiques, I'm like, oh my gosh, I didn't even-- the things that you don't pick up on as a reader. So, Janine, part of her story-- and this perhaps is worth investigating a little further, but part of her story is that she has left Miles. I think Miles is a pretty passive man. I think that's part of his flaw.
[00:26:59] And so she marries this kind of annoying or she's engaged to the super annoying gym owner. I felt like he was such a character that could have appeared in a show like Gilmore Girls where it feels like the characters are a little bit of caricatures. And so anyway, she loses a bunch of weight and becomes a pretty irritating-- she is a pretty irritating, flawed character. I think the fact that Miles's father is also irritating, I think we're supposed to like David, who is Miles's brother. But I found him a little frustrating. They're all frustrating, but they're also incredibly familiar. I think that's one of the questions I wanted to present to you is early in the book, there's this quote that says, "One of the good things about small towns, Miles Mother had always maintained, was that they accommodated just about everyone." And I love that quote. And I also pushed up against it a little bit. I wanted to know, did you think that's an accurate description of Empire Falls? And then what about small towns in general? Because one of my favorite parts of the book was, yeah, we probably need to investigate some of the fatphobia surrounding Janine's character, some of perhaps the misogynistic treatment of some of the women characters, but also all of the characters are messy. You love mess. These are messy characters. They're also characters I feel like I know deeply.
Hunter McLendon [00:28:26] So just the idea of the characters as a whole, I think that they're all very complicated. I don't know if I would label most of them as likable, but I do think that Richard Russo has this ability to write so tenderly about people who are just very frustrated by while not negating that they're really annoying people. It doesn't take away from that. He's like, they're annoying; they're also human.
Annie Jones [00:28:55] Yeah. Even Mrs. Whiting who is like this town kind of matriarch, I almost pictured her as Mr. Potter in it's a Wonderful Life. Like, she's this very moneyed, stingy, powerful woman who runs the town. And like the town only exists because of her wealth. But also she has Miles dangling by a thread. Like, she owns the restaurant but won't sell it to him. Like just kind of this stingy character. And she is supposed to be villainous, it would seem. And yet even she is actually really interesting. I did not find her as villainous as maybe-- I mean, she is a villain, but also not. She's really interesting.
Hunter McLendon [00:29:44] Yeah. Of course, all these things are worth interrogating. And to be clear, I don't want to act like I'm discounting any criticisms. I am really just like every time that this is brought up to me, I'm so curious, especially if I don't personally pick up on it, then I'm like, oh, let me reflect.
Annie Jones [00:30:05] Right. That deserves some investigation.
Hunter McLendon [00:30:06] Yeah. And also I don't ever want it to seem like I'm not really considering these things, but going back to your question about do I think small towns accommodate everyone?
Annie Jones [00:30:23] Yeah. Which I just think is an interesting point.
Hunter McLendon [00:30:26] Okay. It's really interesting, right? Because I don't feel like Tallahassee is a big town, but it's a lot bigger than Thomasville. But I will say Thomasville, much smaller town, was more accommodating to me than Tallahassee.
Annie Jones [00:30:41] Oh, this is fascinating.
Hunter McLendon [00:30:43] Yeah. So I'm really curious if there's like a ratio, if there's like a certain number of people versus mile radius.
Annie Jones [00:30:52] I grew up in Tallahassee. Now I live in Thomasville. When I saw that quote, my gut reaction was immediately like, small towns don't accommodate everybody. Like, what are you talking about? Small towns can be intense. And I think also this is certainly coming from my personal experience, which is I'm not from a small town. I moved to a small town, and I think that's a different thing. But then I started to think about this idea and perhaps this happens in your marriage as well, but in your marriage or in your relationships where you're allowed to critique your family, but nobody else is.
Hunter McLendon [00:31:29] Yes.
Annie Jones [00:31:30] And you can just sense it. Like the moment that maybe I've made a comment about Jordan's family, and then maybe Jordan makes a comment about my family and I'm like, excuse me, what? Like, I'm allowed to say that about my 'insert family member here', but you're not. And I wonder. Small towns are just a larger look at the family. And so I do think small towns do take care of their own, and are willing to overlook the sins of their own and are willing to make room or accommodate their own. And you can see that in Empire Falls, like the fact that I named so many flawed characters, but the annoying guy who owns a gym and he comes to the restaurant every day and some people move seats when he comes in, but they stay at the restaurant and they still will talk to him. And I thought that is very small town. Like, yeah, maybe that guy's annoying, but whatever. We're used to him, he's ours. And the priest with dementia, that town is still like, I mean, yes, he has dementia, but he's still our priest. Or Miles's dad who by all accounts is pretty down on his luck, maybe a little bit lazy, maybe has a drinking problem, whatever, but he's still theirs. He still belongs to Empire Falls. So I kept coming back to the idea of of how small towns are like families. And maybe that's what Richard Russo's characters are saying.
Hunter McLendon [00:33:03] Well, it's actually really funny because it also reminded me of my mom and I used to work at a gas station and a liquor store that were connected in this really small town that truly only had like a grocery store and a tiny library and then like a hardware store and then three gas stations. But we worked at one of the gas stations and the liquor store. It's so funny because I do think that if you ever work at a gas station/liquor store, you pretty much run into everyone who is in that town. But you're talking about this idea of we knew who the alcoholics were and we knew which ones were the ones to be wary of and we loved the ones who were like, "Oh, yeah, I'm just throwing this really big party this weekend. That's why I'm buying 11 bottles of wine, don't mind me." And it's like, oh, I had no idea that you had so many parties every week. I mean, it's just really interesting. But we didn't really judge that, but we just kind of laughed at it because it's part of the routine. It's like you get past your anxiety or fear of the people who are different than you or who or whatever. And then it just becomes part of like the scenery.
Annie Jones [00:34:16] Yes. I love how you put. It's just part of your routine. So these people and how they behave or what they say. And I talk about this a lot. I think about this a lot just in terms of when you live in a place and you're actually-- as we're recording this, we're coming off local elections. And one of my favorite Thomasville pastimes is the History Center's Chicken Perlo Dinner, which takes place on election night. And not only do I love chicken perlo, but I love the concept of after you go cast your vote, now you've got to go cat chicken perlo next to somebody who might have voted differently from you because, hey, guess what? Joke's on you. We all live here together And so there is this almost forced proximity that makes-- I think small towns really do have this reputation of being less accommodating. And I think it's interesting to hear your perspective as somebody who left a small town. And, of course, Tallahassee is not the big city, but it is comparatively speaking and you found it ever so slightly less accommodating. I think that's interesting.
Hunter McLendon [00:35:26] Well, also something else I wanted to-- it's funny because I've been thinking a lot about how talking about interrogating, because yes this book and Gilmore Girls it's exploring the lives of characters and it does give them a lot of depth and interest and stuff. But at the same time, it's almost like when you live in a small town and you're so used to it, you don't really investigate. You don't really dive that deep into it at a certain point. So people do just kind of fit into their little mold and you don't really go much further than that.
Annie Jones [00:36:22] Right. Which I think I personally that is sometimes one of the challenges of living in a small town. It's I think in a small town you're pretty content, probably so you can keep living at peace with one another. Like you're pretty content to let things be pretty shallow because we want to keep being in relationship with each other and if we dig too deep, we might hurt each other. So if that's what you're saying, I would agree with that.
Hunter McLendon [00:36:44] Yes. I think in Empire Falls it's a little different because this is a book where it is exploring the lives of all these people. But I do also think that if there is any criticism about some lack of depth in some of these things, I think it just comes down to if you think about Gilmore Girls and you think about all the different people who have the dance studio and the neighbors and all these people they're like comic relief, but they're not that deep. But the truth is that is how these small towns are. You're not going that deep with some of these people because they're just part of your day to day. But they're not your people.
Annie Jones [00:37:20] Yes. And I feel that way as somebody-- and I'm not being self-deprecating here. I'm telling the truth, which is I'm the town bookseller, and so is the book shop staff. But we talk about this. I think about this all the time. When a beloved customer of ours dies, we don't know until a couple of months go by. And I maybe will say to Olivia, "Hey, have you seen So-and-so?" And Olivia might say, "No, I haven't it." And then I go Google and I find an obituary. And that is a very humbling experience to realize I am just a side character in these people's stories. I'm just the bookseller who they visit every week, every couple of weeks. And you just realize so many of your relationships when you live in a small town are-- and I'm somebody who naturally gravitate towards deeper relationships. And so it's been really interesting to discover what gratification can come from more shallow relationships. And I forget they have a word for this. It's come up a lot, especially in light of the pandemic when you lose somebody that you only vaguely know. I don't know, there's a term for this kind of grief. And that is something I think about all the time because I am somebody's Miss Patty, do you know what I mean? Maybe less sexual. But I am somebody's Miss Patty. These kids who grew up in Thomasville aren't really going to know anything about me except well I read them stories before. And that's it. And that's okay.
Hunter McLendon [00:38:57] It is kind of a little bit like the parasocial relationships. Like, [inaudible] with celebrities and stuff. It's like along that same line. I think it's not quite as intense because no one's investing in us the way they invest in, like, Brangelina. So like in Thomasville, they changed one of the roads that enters from Tallahassee to Thomas. So they changed it and there's a little roundabout thing now.
Annie Jones [00:39:32] Yes.
Hunter McLendon [00:39:33] And let me tell you something. That little change, you'd think, oh, not significant. When I first came back to town [inaudible] and I thought, oh, wait, what is this? My whole life has changed. The world is over. I kind of cried for a second because it's kind of like when people write about this all the time about how you can never go home again, and it's because things are never the same.
Annie Jones [00:40:04] Yeah. I want us to move in to-- because we'll have to wrap up soon, but I want to talk about the ending. So there are going to be some spoiler things here. So fast forward, maybe give us 5 minutes, which maybe seems excessive, but I want to give us time to talk about this ending. And I want to start with this quote from page 441 when Tick is looking back on the last year. Tick is Miles and Janine's daughter. And she says, "Just because things happen slow doesn't mean you'll be ready for them. If they happened fast, you'd be alert for all kinds of sadness." And then so part of the reason I want to start this conversation about the ending with that quote is because one of the reasons this book is not a five star read for me is because it felt like with one quarter of the book left to go, all of a sudden throughout the book we have-- and maybe this is genius and maybe it is worth five stars. Maybe we've got to rethink this. But basically throughout the book, we've been seeing Tick in certain vignettes and she's getting to know this young guy who's in her art class at school. She has her own friendships, her own dramas. It's very high school.
Hunter McLendon [00:41:11] Yes.
Annie Jones [00:41:12] And I liked that storyline. I was like, oh, this is interesting that we're learning about Tick. And then truly with a quarter-ish left in the book, there is a school shooting, like an extreme act of violence. And I flipped. It caused me to look at the release date of this book because I was like, oh, is this of its time? Like, is this in a post Columbine landscape? Because Jordan and I had been thinking about that, we've been listening to the audiobook Columbine because we were out in Colorado a couple weeks ago. And so that was on my brain. And so I was like, oh my gosh, is this because in 2001 this is what we were thinking about? But it felt so out of place to me. And this quote from Tick later, I did think to myself, well, was Richard Russo quietly, like slowly laying the groundwork for this whole time? But I felt very taken out of my reading experience. And I'm curious how you felt.
Hunter McLendon [00:42:09] Let me tell you, there's another book that came out last year, I won't say the title of it, but there's a book that has a shooting that happens. A very popular book that you loved, that I liked, but I'd read it after the hype. It was a big hyped book.
Annie Jones [00:42:23] What was it?
Hunter McLendon [00:42:24] I don't want to spoil for anyone. It was it a book by the author of Young Jane Young.
Annie Jones [00:42:31] Oh, yes. Okay.
Hunter McLendon [00:42:33] And there is a shooting. Listen, I'm not going to lie. Like, I don't know what this is about, but I mean, any time that there is like a shooting in a book and that's not what the book is about--
Annie Jones [00:42:44] Has been pitched as. Yeah.
Hunter McLendon [00:42:46] Yeah. Then I'm like, ugh, don't do it. And it's hard because I'm like, on the one hand, that is how it would feel if it was happening. That's a very realistic way to depict it. But also I'm like I don't know.
Annie Jones [00:43:05] I can't decide how I felt because, again, it felt realistic in that it was shocking, I think especially shocking because we've loved this small town. And so when things happen in a small town that you think a town like this is protected from something like this, from an act of violence like this, and so I thought, well, this is very realistic. And weirdly, sadly, in 2023, just as timely as it would have been in 2001. But I also felt very distracted by it. And part of the reason I want to protect people from spoilers from this relatively old book, is just because there's no indication anywhere, not on the back of the book. You know a lot of books will say-- I feel like I've read this phrase over and over again. A shocking act of violence startles a small town. There is no indication that that is going to happen in this book. And so I was startled and I still can't decide to this day-- I read this about a month ago. I cannot decide if it was a slow, quiet brilliant thing to do to have this thing or if it was distracting and took away from everything else going on in the plot. I certainly could have done without it. I'll say that I feel like it could have been a complete book without it.
Hunter McLendon [00:44:29] I know. I'm not going to lie. I actually thought after that happened and when I first finished the book, I actually thought the same thing. I was like, do I need to reread this just to see if there's any underlying threads that I was not--
Annie Jones [00:44:43] That you missed.
Hunter McLendon [00:44:45] It almost kind of reminds me there's this commercials about the depressed friend and the happy friend and the commercial ends with the happy friend gone because of the happy friend who died by suicide. I was like, is this one of those things where I'm like it's a Mr. X?
Annie Jones [00:45:01] Yes. Like you've been looking over here and, and as a reader it was startling. And all of us, I think, are on alert. And it was upsetting. It was upsetting because I think if you are an American, you know this could happen at any time. And so I found it deeply disturbing for that reason. And it felt I hadn't seen it coming for Tick. And I thought just Tick was at high school trying to make friends and figure life out. It became something really different. And the book ends and I think wraps up in a really beautiful way. Ultimately, Tick and Miles really rely upon one another. This was interesting to me, just like the whole idea of Miles refused to leave. And then this is the thing that kind of causes him to move, and then he comes back. Like, it's really interesting. It's a lot about how you get stuck in a small town and how you leave a small town. But I can't decide. I don't know. I can't decide if it ruined it for me, if it ruined a five star book. I really did love this book. But I can't decide if it ruined it for me or if it's an act of brilliance that I don't quite understand.
Hunter McLendon [00:46:28] I know. I do think that the book that I mentioned before I thought, okay, so this is how they're doing it. Okay. I do actually want to read it just for that one reason alone.
Annie Jones [00:46:45] Okay, so we talk about the Pulitzer. Like, who else was up for the award in this particular year? I think it won the award in 2002. And I'm curious how you think it compared. I don't think it's shocking that this is a Pulitzer winner. I as a reader, I'm very attracted to Pulitzer winners. I like a quiet book. I like a character driven book. I like a book about place. It ticks all those boxes for me. We read Tinkers earlier this year, and it felt very in line with Tinkers. Just wondering how this compared with some of the other books up for that year.
Hunter McLendon [00:47:18] So I actually have not read the other two books. However, the two books that were finalists were by major writers. One was John Henry Days by Colson Whitehead.
Annie Jones [00:47:30] Oh, wow.
Hunter McLendon [00:47:32] And the other one was the National Book Award winner of the previous year, which was The Corrections by Jonathan Franzen.
Annie Jones [00:47:38] Oh, wow. Big heavy hitters that year.
Hunter McLendon [00:47:41] Yeah. Which also two big old books. And The Corrections is like about like the nuclear family, I think.
Annie Jones [00:47:50] Really interesting. I think critics love this book. It's very funny to read a New York Times critic talking about blue collar America. But I think critics really felt like Richard Russo captured the tone and the depiction of small town, blue collar life. And I don't disagree. I mean, I do think he did that very well. But that seemed to be the consensus from critics that year is that this is an American novel.
Hunter McLendon [00:48:26] Which if you really consider where America was at at the time, this probably was like the most American experience that people were having, I guess.
Annie Jones [00:48:37] Yeah, because it's a little bit about gentrification, a lot about small town America, dying small towns, how industry impacts workers, workers rights. Like, you get a broad of that stuff in here actually, all about the factory that closes and what happens to all of those jobs. And, again, very sadly in 2023, a lot of those things are still extremely relevant to the American landscape and to the American experience. And so as much as I wonder if the ending took away from some of the story, I can't deny, certainly he has written an encapsulation of the American experience. I'll also say very much the white American experience. If we're talking critiques, that's certainly one that we probably could have even discussed more. But, yeah, the white American small town, blue collar experience, I think is definitely portrayed in this book. I really liked it. I've got some some things I'm still kind of pondering, but I think you put it really well earlier in the episode when you said it's not a book that you're going to forget. Like, it's not forgettable. I do think I'll remember this book for a long time.
Hunter McLendon [00:49:50] So you think you'll probably read more of his work?
Annie Jones [00:49:52] I think I would like to read more of his work. I'm very curious about the Chances books like there's just so many of them. But I will say I also looked up like some of his backlist because I thought, well, where can I start? And the first book in that Chance series-- I can't remember which one it is. Maybe it's Chances are something like that. But the first one, which was written before this one is I think the main character is Sully. He's a recently divorced dad in small town Maine. And so I was like, okay, so is Richard-- This is what's always interesting about a writer's trajectory to me. Like I read Empire Falls and I think, Oh my gosh, this is brilliant. Like it won the Pulitzer. Unlike Tinkers, which kind of came out of nowhere, this is something where I'm like, oh, maybe this is the book that Richard Russo was building toward. And maybe a lot of his work revolves around these same themes. I don't know. I am curious and I think I will try some of his other work.
Hunter McLendon [00:50:47] Yeah. I am glad. I'm very glad that you texted me and said let's read this because I just had been not picking it up for the longest time. I don't even know if I would have picked it up for another couple of years if you hadn't encouraged that. So I'm grateful for that.
Annie Jones [00:51:00] I'm glad, too. I don't think it's one that would have been on my radar were it not for this random. book blogger. So yeah, I'm grateful for the Gilmore Girls comp, which I think maybe doesn't necessarily-- it's certainly not Gilmore Girls esque in tone. There's no fast paced Amy Sherman-Palladino stuff happening here, but I think in the spirit of the thing that is a true comparison. And I really did enjoy my reading experience. I also thought it was a great fall book. So if you're looking for a fall autumnal read to kind of close out the year, I do think this would be a good.
Hunter McLendon [00:51:34] A hundred percent.
Annie Jones [00:51:40] This week, what I'm reading is brought to you by visit Thomasville. Fall is a wonderful time to visit Thomasville, Georgia. If it's time to hit the road for a quick getaway, we are exactly what you're looking for. You can rekindle your spark, explore historical sites, indulge in dining out, shop at amazing independent stores, and finally relax and unwind. There's no better getaway than Thomasville. Whether you live close by or just passing through, we hope you'll visit beautiful Thomasville, Georgia. It's worth the trip. Plan Your visit at ThomasvilleGA.com.
[00:52:08] Coming up, the downtown Thomasville is getting ready for the holiday season. The holidays are pretty much here. They are upon us. On Sunday, November 19th, we are having our downtown holiday open house. So it's not just the Bookshelf, that's all of downtown Thomasville. So if you're looking for a time to come check out the holiday decor, the festive atmosphere, the great gifts that you can buy at locally owned and independently owned stores, I think that would be such a fun day to visit. It's a little bit lower key than Victorian Christmas. I think I've said that in years past and it still is true, and it's a great time to come up for the day. Like come up for the Sunday afternoon, go to lunch, go to brunch and then shop and head back home. I think it would just be a fun time to visit Thomasville. This week I'm reading Dolls of Our Lives by Mary Mahoney and Allison Horrocks. Hunter McLendon, what are you reading?
Hunter McLendon [00:52:58] I'm reading Hawk Mountain by Connor Habib.
Annie Jones [00:53:02] Thank you again to our sponsor Visit Thomasville. Don't forget to plan your next visit at ThomasvilleGa.com.
Annie Jones: From the Front Porch is a weekly podcast production of The Bookshelf, an independent bookstore in Thomasville, Georgia. You can follow The Bookshelf’s daily happenings on Instagram at @bookshelftville, and all the books from today’s episode can be purchased online through our store website: bookshelfthomasville.com A full transcript of today’s episode can be found at:
Special thanks to Studio D Podcast Production for production of From the Front Porch and for our theme music, which sets the perfect warm and friendly tone for our Thursday conversations.
Our Executive Producers of today’s episode are…
Cammy Tidwell, Chantalle Carl, Kate O'Connell, Kristin May, Linda Lee Drozt, Martha, Stacy Laue, Chanta Combs, Stephanie Dean, Ashley Ferrell
Executive Producers (Read Their Own Names): Nicole Marsee, Wendi Jenkins, Laurie Johnson, Susan Hulings Annie Jones: If you’d like to support From the Front Porch, please leave a review on Apple Podcasts. Your input helps us make the show even better and reach new listeners. All you have to do is open up the Podcast App on your phone, look for From the Front Porch, scroll down until you see ‘Write a Review’ and tell us what you think. Or, if you’re so inclined, support us over on Patreon, where we have 3 levels of support - Front Porch Friends, Book Club Companions, and Bookshelf Benefactors. Each level has an amazing number of benefits like bonus content, access to live events, discounts, and giveaways. Just go to: patreon.com/fromthefrontporch We’re so grateful for you, and we look forward to meeting back here next week.