Episode 420 || Bookmarked with Annie & Hunter

This week on From the Front Porch, a familiar series gets a fresh new name! Backlist Book Club was where Annie and Hunter read or re-read a book that came out several years prior. Now, it’s called Bookmarked with Annie and Hunter! This time on Bookmarked, they’re discussing Tinkers by Paul Harding. You can purchase your copy from our website here.

From the Front Porch is a weekly podcast production of The Bookshelf, an independent bookstore in South Georgia. You can follow The Bookshelf’s daily happenings on Instagram at @bookshelftville, and all the books from today’s episode can be purchased online through our store website, www.bookshelfthomasville.com. 

A full transcript of today’s episode can be found below.

Special thanks to Dylan and his team at Studio D Podcast Production for sound and editing and for our theme music, which sets the perfect warm and friendly tone for our Thursday conversations. 

Thank you to this week’s sponsor, the 102nd Annual Rose Show and Festival in Thomasville, Georgia. Come visit us for the weekend of April 28th-29th and experience the flowers, fun, food, and shopping in Beautiful Thomasville. Plan your visit at ThomasvilleGa.com.

This week, Annie is listening to Happy Place by Emily Henry (releases on April 25th). Preorder Happy Place on Libro.fm here. Preoder a physical copy of Happy Place here. Hunter is reading Rouge by Mona Awad (releases September 12th).

If you liked what you heard in today’s episode, tell us by leaving a review on Apple Podcasts. Or, if you’re so inclined, support us on Patreon, where you can hear our staff’s weekly New Release Tuesday conversations, read full book reviews in our monthly Shelf Life newsletter and follow along as Hunter and I conquer a classic. Just go to patreon.com/fromthefrontporch.

We’re so grateful for you, and we look forward to meeting back here next week.

Our Executive Producers are...Cammy Tidwell, Chanta Combs, Chantalle C, Donna Hetchler, Kate O’Connell, Kristin May, Laurie Johnson, Linda Lee Drozt, Martha, Nicole Marsee, Stacy Laue, Stephanie Dean, Susan Hulings, and Wendi Jenkins.

Transcript:

Annie Jones [squeaky porch swing] Welcome to From the Front Porch, a conversational podcast about books, small business and life in the South. 

[music plays out] 

“Your cold mornings are filled with the heartache about the fact that although we are not at ease in this world, it is all we have. That it is ours, but that it is full of strife so that all we can call our own is strife. But even that is better than nothing at all, isn't it?”   

- Paul Harding, Tinkers.

  [as music fades out] 

[00:00:43] I'm Annie Jones, owner of The Bookshelf, an independent bookstore in beautiful downtown Thomasville, Georgia. And this week, I'm joined by frequent From the Front Porch guests, Hunter McLendon, though you might know him as Shelf by Shelf on Instagram. Speaking of Instagram, don't forget to follow the Bookshelf @Bookshelftville. Instagram is where we post regular updates about shop happenings, including what books release each Tuesday, and details about upcoming events like Word of South and Indie Bookstore Day. If you're looking for a no cost way to support the work of our independent bookstore, following us on Instagram and liking and resharing our posts is a great way to do that. You can find us @Bookshelftville on Instagram. Now, back to the show. Hi, Hunter.  

Hunter [00:01:26] Hello.  

Annie Jones [00:01:28] Yes.  

Hunter [00:01:29] I was just going to say for anyone who, for whatever reason, does not subscribe to the Patreon, I am frequently recording. We're recording episodes there for a Conquer a Classic. I have forgotten what it is like to be on a normal episode. And I was like, wow, there's so much happening because typically we just jump in.  

Annie Jones [00:01:48] Yeah, it's way more professional over here on the public feed. On the patron feed, it's a little more freewheeling. I kind of fly by the seat of my pants, but today I had an intro and a quote. It's very professional.  

Hunter [00:01:59] I love it. It's my favorite.  

Annie Jones [00:02:01] So, Hunter, we've rebranded. These are the artists formerly known as Backlist Book Club. Did you like that?  

Hunter [00:02:10] I did. That's good.  

Annie Jones [00:02:13] So, instead, we as a Bookshelf staff were really talking about what we wanted to brand certain episodes. As, for example, Ashley and I called our episodes Kids Table. It was something I loved and enjoyed. I still love those episodes, but we've rebranded them because Kids Table was confusing to people and they thought we were talking about Kid Lit. So we were worried Backlist Book Club was preventing people who maybe hadn't done their homework. People who might think, "Oh no, a book club. I didn't do work for a book club." And so, we are calling these episodes Bookmarked with Annie and Hunter. Do you approve?  

Hunter [00:02:48] I love it. I mean, I think that was something I used at my wedding was bookmarked. Our whole thing was as book themed. 

Annie Jones [00:02:58] Yeah. Adorable. So, Bookmarked with Annie and Hunter. For this year we're going to stick with Pulitzer winners. We just talked off air about some of the books we're going to be reading this year, but this episode is about Tinkers by Paul Harding. Here is what is important to note about these episodes. They are designed for either people who have already read Tinkers and want to hear us wax philosophical about Tinkers, or they are designed for people who have not read Tinkers and who might finish this episode and be inspired to read this Pulitzer Prize winning work. So, these are not episodes. We will try to warn you of spoilers, although this particular book is really immune, I think, to spoilers. You kind of know what's happening. People on the Internet think I'm really bad at spoilers. Did you know that?  

Hunter [00:03:46] Wait, what do you mean?  

Annie Jones [00:03:48] People really say that I don't give enough spoiler warnings, that I just kind of tell about a book. Which that could be true, I don't know.  

Hunter [00:03:57] I don't know. I feel like I'm pretty weary of spoilers, but I've never felt spoiled by you.  

Annie Jones [00:04:02] Thank you so much. So, these we will try to always warn you if we are going to spoiler talk. I think we've done that in our back episodes of Backlist Book Club, but today's episode is going to be pretty spoiler free because we know what's going to happen really from the moment we begin reading this book. But if you are new to this episode, we hope you will stick around and listen to the whole thing. We love these bookish conversations. They are some of my favorite episodes. Hunter, why do we pick Tinkers?  

Hunter [00:04:29] I think because it was one of the shortest Pulitzer winners that we could find.  

Annie Jones [00:04:35] That's correct. We're already conquering classic over on Patreon, as Hunter has mentioned. So, we really needed to keep things short and simple. Also, because maybe I forgot that we were recording this and maybe two weeks ago, Hunter was like, "Hey, are we doing an episode about a Pulitzer winner?" Why, yes? We are. So, we picked this. Have you read this before?  

Hunter [00:05:01] I have not. It was on my list. He just had a book come out (Paul Harding) This Other Eden, I believe it's called.  

Annie Jones [00:05:10] Yes.  

Hunter [00:05:11] And I got it at the Bookshelf actually recently when I had friends in town. Shop local. I don't work for the book, I'm just a fan. I've had an interest in him. And actually I was very curious about this one because a lot of people had told me they didn't like it.  

Annie Jones [00:05:32] Interesting.  

Hunter [00:05:32] And when people tell me they don't like a book, I'm like, "Tell me more."  

Annie Jones [00:05:37] Yes, I'm almost more curious about that than people who love a book.  

Hunter [00:05:40] Yeah. 

Annie Jones [00:05:42] I went into this knowing nothing. We really did kind of pick it because of the links. And I think vaguely knew maybe that it was New England, but that was really the extent of my knowledge. This won the Pulitzer back in 2010. What I did not know was the book's history. This is fascinating. Paul Harding was a debut novelist. This was his first book. He was like a rock star, literally. Not a rock star for writing this book. He was a rock star. He played in a band and decided-- though I will say, America loves a Cinderella story, but we forget there are other elements to Cinderella. So he was a rock star who also went to the Iowa writing school. You know what I mean? He learned under Marilynne Robinson. So, it's not like he just went from drumming to writing this Pulitzer Prize winning book. But this was his first novel. He wanted to write a book about his family more or less, or something like a book about his family, about hardscrabble people in Maine or Massachusetts. Anyway, so he wrote Tinkers, and it was independently published by a small press called Bellevue Literary Press. They still print it. And independent bookstores championed this book so much that it just kind of took off in a way no one was anticipating. And it got the attention of reviewers and then became a Pulitzer winner. Which the myth of this book is really delightful to me. I really love it.  

Hunter [00:07:16] Wait, do you think this is like the Andrea Risborough of the Pulitzer scene?  

Annie Jones [00:07:23] I hope that it is more deserving than Andrea Risborough. 

Hunter [00:07:27] Did you watch that movie?  

Annie Jones [00:07:29] No.  

Hunter [00:07:30] I saw about 5 minutes and I was like, "Oh my goodness, my mom does better than this. Skip."  

Annie Jones [00:07:35] We don't need this or her famous friends. No, but I do think that America and maybe other people outside of America also love a mythology. But I feel like there is a great story behind this book. And I wonder if in all of your Pulitzer readings, because you have read a lot of award winning books and done a lot of research on things like that, do you think the myth behind this book or the storytelling behind Tinkers elevated it and gave it more of a chance in the Pulitzer race that year?  

Hunter [00:08:08] Possibly. I think so. I'd be curious to know if Paul Harding-- because you have to pay to submit these books. That's the thing too. People don't really talk about this. But a lot of times people get really mad and they'll be like, "Oh, why wasn't that book chosen for an award?" Sometimes it's because the publisher didn't want to pay for it and the author didn't have the means to pay because it's a couple hundred dollars, I think, to submit. 

Annie Jones [00:08:36] Fascinating. This is new information to me.  

Hunter [00:08:38] Yeah. I believe that's how the Pulitzer works. I know that's how the National Book Award works. As much as we hate to think of it, it's really very political much like the Oscars. You are campaigning in a way. And, yes, I do think that in some ways that the narrative behind the book probably helped it some. But I also just think that this was a book that was doing things that we weren't really seeing done and still don't lately see done a lot.  

Annie Jones [00:09:08] Mm-hmm.  

Hunter [00:09:09] Well, I think we'll probably talk a lot about this, but you can definitely tell that Marilynne Robinson had a hand in shaping who he is as a writer.  

Annie Jones [00:09:15] For sure.  

Hunter [00:09:16] And I think that because we don't really see that many writers like Marilynne Robinson, it's very exciting when we see somebody who has this level of intellect in a work and this level of-- because this is a book that is demanding in a very fun and enjoyable way. Because the Pulitzer is looking for books preferably dealing with American life, I think that this was a book that was showing something that we maybe have seen but not in this way before and maybe felt like-- I don't know. So, yeah, I think there's a lot that was going on with this that really helped elevate it.  

Annie Jones [00:09:54] I love your use of the word demanding because this was not necessarily a book that I immediately sat down and connected with. Or, in fact, I sat down with it and connected with it and then was immediately taken out of it. And we'll talk a little bit about the structure. Before we do that, this is literally the blurb, which is one of the more unusual blurbs or descriptions on the back of the book. "An old man lies dying as time collapses into memory. He travels deep into his past, where he's reunited with his father and relives the wonder and pain of his impoverished New England youth. At once heartbreaking and life affirming, Tinkers is an allergic meditation on love, loss and the fierce beauty of nature." Now, look, that's a beautiful blurb. It doesn't fully tell you what this book is about. It tells you what it's about, but it is almost as poetic as what is within the pages of the book. But essentially, we have a book that is about George Crosby, and it's really about three generations of men in the Crosby family. It's about George who was on his deathbed. It is about his father, Howard, who he is kind of having memories of and almost hallucinations of. And then it is even about Howard's father who was a minister. We get those three generations. We get more about Howard and George than we really do Howard's father. But, anyway, it's kind of these three generations of New England men. And despite the fact that Marilynne Robinson wrote about a different region of the country, even if my copy did not have an introduction or a foreword by Marilynne Robinson, I would have immediately thought, oh yes, this is familiar to me. A man on his deathbed kind of reflecting. And so in that way I was immediately hooked. You are immediately introduced to George. I was curious what was going to happen to him. George Washington Crosby began to hallucinate eight days before he died. It's a great opening line.  

Hunter [00:11:55] Yeah.  

Annie Jones [00:11:55] But then we immediately begin to get excerpts from a pretend (a fictional but purported to be real) book about clock making. We also get some other kind of passages about various Bordelaises kind of mixed in. And so, it's not this really linear story. Whereas, in Gilead, a man is on his deathbed kind of writing and reflecting to his son. It's pretty straightforward storytelling. This did not feel straightforward. In fact, at first, part of the reason I was taken out of the story was because I was like, "Oh my gosh, these clock passages." I'm curious what you thought about the structure and the narrative storytelling.  

Hunter [00:12:46] I think this is a book that I'm really glad I read now because I've read so much more in the past decade and especially the past two years alone, a lot of Faulkner, I've read a lot of international literature that really does a lot of interesting things with structure. And I think if I had not read those books and I started this, I'd have been like what is going on? I would probably have hated this book honestly, because it would have thrown me and I wouldn't have thought... Yeah, I do think this book is like a marriage between Faulkner and Marilynne Robinson in that it has a lot of the quieter, more nuanced reflective moments of Marilynne Robinson, but it has a lot of the really interesting structural play that Faulkner has and a lot of stuff that's actually like out of the U.S. canon.  

Annie Jones [00:13:35] Mm-hmm.  

Hunter [00:13:36] But at first it took me probably about a third of the book before I really realized, like, oh, I get it. Like, the clock played-- this is all time this is like...  

Annie Jones [00:13:45] That's exactly how long it took me. The book is fewer than 200 pages, I think. Or it's right at 200 pages. And then it is divided up into, I think, four chapters. So, those of you who like me are maybe wary of long chapter-- it's okay, gird your loins, you can do it. Sometimes literature demands more of us, and that's okay. Anyway, the first chapter is 80 pages.  

Hunter [00:14:12] Mm-hmm.  

Annie Jones [00:14:13] I liked the first chapter. I thought, well, this is fine. Like you, I am glad I was reading it now; although, I still have not been able to finish a Faulkner book, it'd be lovely to try. The last time I tried was Pre-Bookshelf life, and I'd be curious to know if I could do better now. I have never completed a Faulkner work, but certainly in the last several years you and I have tackled classics together. I'd like to think I've read books that I wouldn't have been able to read back when I was 18. And so, like you, I picked this one up and thought, "Oh, I am glad I'm reading this now because I'm not sure I would have been able to handle the structure previously. That being said, chapter two for me which is really the middle of the book and I think it might be the largest chapter, that's when I fell in love. The first chapter, I thought, okay, I'm kind of getting used to the rhythm. I'm kind of getting used to this structure. We'll talk about this, too. It almost reminded me of Anny Dillard a little bit in terms of nature writing, too. And so, I felt like I was getting my bearings. And then the second chapter is really devoted, and perhaps I liked it a lot because it did feel a little bit more straightforward storytelling. But in that case, I kind of think it's brilliant that the first section is kind of playing with time and playing with these, I don't know, descriptions. These little interspersements. 

Hunter [00:15:39] Did you also notice there are also several moments where he switches tenses, too?  

Annie Jones [00:15:45] Yes. I kind of wondered if the switching of the tenses is-- and not to be morbid, but this is a book about death, essentially. This is somebody reflecting back on their life. And I wonder if that's because as you near the end of your life time kind of constricts on itself.  

Hunter [00:16:11] Yeah. I Have you read Alice Munro?  

Annie Jones [00:16:16] No.  

Hunter [00:16:17] Okay. So Lawrence Groth once described Alice Munro short stories as-- almost everyone else they use time in a very linear way. But Alice Munro almost uses time as layers of tissue. I think in that way this book is kind of doing the same thing. And I think you're right. I think it's almost like temporal, whatever that whole... I think when you're dying in a way it's almost like you're shifting in and out of all of your time maybe. It's like kind of that. Yes. 

Annie Jones [00:16:48] That's what I kept thinking. I was like, oh, this is somebody who is here in the present moment, but just barely. He is just barely talking to his family. He's barely coherent, but in his mind he is young again. In his mind, he has gone back to his father. And so, it all kind of feels poetic and messy. And it's like he's existing in those thin places that we talk about. And so, the verb structures really never bothered me because it felt so realistic to this kind of storytelling. The passages from the clock book were a little harder. I remember you and I once-- I think it was because we were conquering some classic or another. But you talked about when a book incorporates something and indents the paragraphs more or include something in italics, your brain almost is like, "This isn't important.".  

Hunter [00:17:41] Oh, yeah.  

Annie Jones [00:17:43] Do you know what I mean? And so, those clock making passages really were difficult for me. But I did want to talk about clocks and how they play a role in this book because Tinkers almost comes from this idea George is a man who in his retirement repairs clocks, and he takes these clocks that have become defunct and he brings them back to life. And at one point, he's on his deathbed and his grandson, I think, is in the room with him. And it was really a poignant scene to me because George is barely there really, barely cognizant. But he says it's so quiet in here and he realizes it's because all the clocks have stopped, because he's the person in the house who would wind them. And so, anyway, I'm curious what you think clocks kind of symbolize. Not to be all English major about it, but they are a recurring theme throughout the book, mainly for George, but also in Howard's storytelling, which Howard's storytelling is to me what takes up most of chapter two. And it's the part that I fell in love with. But clocks, by the end of the book, you kind of realize this means something.  

Hunter [00:18:50] I definitely think that this in the same way that the structure is playing with time, it's funny because I actually feel like you would think that. "Oh, like, like a book playing with time, clocks." But it's so much more nuanced than that. It feels like it can be so over the head. But I think that it never handholds the reader and says like, "Oh, look at these clocks spin." Like a physical presentation of what we're doing with the structure and with his mind and his tunneling back and forth in time. I feel like it is those things, where it doesn't feel too obvious.  

Annie Jones [00:19:26] In fact, I didn't even realize until I reached the end of the book, maybe when I was reading the extra stuff at the back of the book, that the time in which George is on his deathbed is the length of time in a clock's. Like a clock's life before you have to wind it. And I thought, well, that's brilliant. And I never would have picked up on that at all because, for me, the more we learn about Howard, George's father, Howard has or had epilepsy, and so he would have seizures. But that was something kind of kept from the children, including George, kept from the family. And there is this really brutal scene in which George all of a sudden is aware of his father's illness. And that immediately for me didn't define George, but it solidified him in my brain. And I thought, oh, George is a tinkerer. George plays with clocks. George fixes clocks because they are something he can fix. And throughout the book, we just get these subtle moments. They're so quiet. Where we see George as a child and he's the eldest son and he's the son who has to take care of his little brother, who obviously maybe has some learning delays. And then he takes care of his sister with asthma. And he's the caregiver in the family and he's the fixer. And I think you realize throughout the book not only are the clocks kind of this representation of time and the time that's passing and the time that George has left, but they're also representative of a man who wanted something that he could fix and that would start working again once he tinkered with it a little bit.  

Hunter [00:21:16] Yeah. So, I have to go back. There's a scene-- it's not super early on, but it's like early enough. I think it's in the first chapter. The black tooth.  

Annie Jones [00:21:23] Oh, my gosh. Yes. Because Howard is like a traveling salesman. All I could think was in Anne of Green Gables, where Ann Shirley buys the black hair dye and she changed her hair green. So Howard is somebody who travels with a wagon full of things. And there's this really great list. Do you know, it also occasionally reminded me of Julie Otsuka. It occasionally that kind of list format. At one point Paul Harding just kind of lists for us what Howard has encountered on the road. And I wish I could find it because I thought it was so good where it's like he's done this, this, and this. He's delivered a baby. And then at one point it says he pulled a tooth. And then it goes into, "Besides fixing pots and selling soap. These are some of the things that Howard did at one time or another on his rounds, sometimes to earn money, mostly not. Shoot a rabid dog, deliver a baby, put out a fire, pull a rotten tooth, cut a man's hair, sell five gallons of homemade whiskey for a backwoods bootlegger named Potts, fish a drowned child from a creek." And then he goes into detail and tells about the drowned child, tells about the man whose hair he cut, and then tells about the man with the rotten teeth. That writing is so good to me. We were talking off air, I think you were reading to me from a short story collection, and you mentioned how compact and concise. And there are some moments in this book that are so concise you still might have to read the sentences a couple of times. There were some times where I had to go back and reread, but overall, they were so concise and quickly immediately I knew exactly who Howard is. He's the kind of man who will pull a man's rotten tooth. And that was so visceral. It reminded me of when we read The Road last year and some of those scenes that are just so brutal. So visceral.  

Hunter [00:23:25] Did you just read this book today or when did you read it?  

Annie Jones [00:23:28] I read it over the last three days. I know, look at me. To be clear, I read the first chapter over the last three days and then I read two, three, and four today.  

Hunter [00:23:41] Okay. I read it today, obviously.  

Annie Jones [00:23:47] And that's what we do.  

Hunter [00:23:50] Yeah. And you know what? I'm really glad I did. But it's so funny because, I'm not going to lie, I did get worked totally. It's fine. I think I read that part this morning before I went to work. But it describes the black tooth and the way it describes the gums and everything, it is so good because it's so disgusting and unnerving. Oh, gosh, you going to have to find it because it's kind of fun. 

Annie Jones [00:24:23] I'm finding it because it's so good. Let me see. And also there's a reference to the Scarlet Letter that comes back.  

Hunter [00:24:31] Yes.  

Annie Jones [00:24:32] When I read that, I gasped. It's this hermit who has a rotten tooth and Howard comes upon him and he can't speak. He's in such pain. "The river was high after an early fast melt. And loud voices seem to mingle in the water as if there were a race of men who dwelled among the rapids. When Gilbert began to list and recite Virgil, Howard reached into the hermit's mouth with the pliers, grabbed the fetid tooth and pulled with all of his strength. The tooth did not budge. Howard let go. Gilbert looked baffled for a moment, then passed out again, flat on his back, the flies neatly following him from upright to laid out. And then he keeps going. Stepping closer, Gilbert opened his mouth and Howard squinting to get a good look saw in that dank, ruined, purple cavern stuck way in the back of an otherwise empty levy of gums, a single black tooth planted in a swollen and bright red throne of flesh."  

Hunter [00:25:24] Is that not so good?  

Annie Jones [00:25:26] It's so good. 

Hunter [00:25:29] I read that and I was like, it's one of the things where if you ever try to write, you'll spend days and days and days carving out a sentence sometimes because you want it to be like a jewel in a box forever. I read that and I had to set the book down, and I was mad. I was jealous because I was like, this is what I want to do.  

Annie Jones [00:25:54] So, when I read a book, what I often am marking are passages that move me or passages that I quote at the top of these episodes or things like that, things that I want to remember. But then I'm also looking for phrases or sentences that stop me in my tracks. And what is so maddening about that sentence is, it is about a one- time meeting with this random hermit who certainly played a role in Howard's stories but it's so minor. Like blink and you miss it kind of thing, and it feels like it doesn't matter in the grand scope of Howard's life or George's life. It just feels like this one off. And then you think, what did Paul Harding do with this one seemingly random encounter about this rotten tooth? And then you read that sentence and you're like, how did he do it? And it is infuriating because it feels like it shouldn't matter.  

Hunter [00:26:48] Well, and it's one of the things that I know sometimes we get frustrated over prizes and stuff and we're like, oh, is this necessary? But books like this, like Marilynne Robinson, Gilead, like Swamplandia, The Road, here's the thing, I like a lot of books but sometimes you read a book and you think, how can someone make every single line this good?  

Annie Jones [00:27:19] Yeah, it feels unfair. And you know what? It is unfair and that's okay. It is unfair. Not everybody can write like this. It's just the facts. Okay, I think I want to talk about the three generations of men, because I think what is so interesting about this novel is definitely the story of Howard, which I think at some points feels the most linear, feels the most linearly told. Certainly sticks out to me personally, but it's not one of those books where you're like, oh, I like George or I like Howard. Really, it's a generational story and I feel like I've read a lot of books about generational trauma.  

Hunter [00:28:08] Yes.  

Annie Jones [00:28:09] And about the effects of one generation on another. The book I reference all the time is The Many Daughters of Afong Moy. But so many can fall into this category because I feel like I've read a lot of this recently where what do the sins and the joys of the father mean to the son and to the grandson? And there's this really great passage where George-- I love that in this book it tells you like 80 hours before he died or 84 hours, so it kind of goes back in time. So, we're 84 hours before he died and George's thinking. And some of these sections are difficult to pull out because they're not-- did you ever read Ducks of Newburyport? What was that book called?  

Hunter [00:28:50] Ducks, Newburyport. I have not read it, but we talked about reading that at one point.  

Annie Jones [00:28:53] I think I'm going to read it because there were moments in this book where there's no sentence break, like you just keep reading. This is one of those. I'll try to stop at it at a decent spot. But basically, George is kind of reflecting and he says, "I will remain a set of impressions, porous and open to combination with all the other vitreous squares floating about in whoever else's frames, because there is always the space left in reserve for the rest of their own time. And to my great grandchildren, with more space than tiles, I will be no more than the smoky arrangement of a set of rumors. And to their great grandchildren, I will be no more than a tint of some obscure color. And to their great grandchildren, nothing they ever know about. And so, what army of strangers and ghosts has shaped and colored me until back to Adam. Until back to when ribs were blown from molten sand into the glass bits that took up the light of this world because they were made from this world." I loved this reflection of my grandchildren will only know me as this. My great grandchildren will only know me as this. My great, great grandchildren will know me as nothing more than a rumor. He is being so reflective and wise. But he also says, "And yet you can also trace me back to Adam."  George knows he is Howard's son. What is Howard's father's name? I can't remember. The preacher. Is he named? Why can't I remember his name? I keep referencing George and Howard. And were we not told?  

Hunter [00:30:19] I don't know if we were. I can't remember.  

Annie Jones [00:30:20] Maybe we weren't told the minister's name. I'm so sorry. I truly don't remember it. But, anyway, you can see that George on his deathbed realizes I'm Howard's and I'm also this grandfather that I didn't really know. And I'm the person who I can't even name to you because I too, my ancestors are nothing more than a rumor to me. I do love that reflection. I'm curious, did you like that? I mean, I think you and I are similar in this way. I am drawn to stories like this where it's kind of multi-generational. Or where you see a character, but you know who they've become is based on who raised them or who influenced them or who their ancestors are.  

Hunter [00:31:05] Yes, because I think the reason why I like books like this is because I think this is more accurate than-- I was reading this thing where Brandon Taylor was talking about writing the book Real Life that was a Booker finalist back in 2020. And someone was like, "Oh, all the characters always feel like they're so real and they feel like they're reacting off each other." And he's like, "Yeah, because you're not moving little Barbie dolls around." He's like this person does something, these other people are reacting to it. They go off and live another life away from what's happening. They come back where things have happened. And everything that is happening with everyone, it's all working together. And I think that with generational stories, that's one of the times that I see it the most clearly. How this is impacting this, is impacting... Even it doesn't only have to be trauma. It's the way that sometimes we brush our hair the way our moms do. It's these little things. And I think that's really beautiful.  

Annie Jones [00:32:10] Yeah. And you're right, there is certainly trauma in this book. And you can see how Howard's epilepsy goes on to affect George in big and small ways. You see how it's kind of shaped maybe his care and his attention to detail and his desire to care for the people that he loves. But it's also seeing Howard's father who was this kind of tortured, perhaps genius who was writing these sermons and writing these kind of poetic, beautiful sermons that then started to not make sense. But then you can see how Howard became a man who loved poetry and who loved nature. And you can see how George loved nature and loved poetry. And so, it's not just the trauma that gets passed down. It's also the beauty and the attention to the natural world. These are things that clearly are-- for lack of a better term, these are the family values that belong to the Crosby men and to the Crosby family.  

Hunter [00:33:10] This is a little side note, by the way. I was just curious to see what the two finalists were for this year.  

Annie Jones [00:33:15] Yeah.  

Hunter [00:33:16] It was Love in Infant Monkeys and In Other Rooms Other Wonders. In other Rooms other Wonders was published by Norton. And Love in Infant Monkeys, Lydia Millet (which you've read Dinosaurs) was Soft Skull Press. And those are two kind of smaller.  

Annie Jones [00:33:32] Yes.  

Hunter [00:33:33] So, it's interesting to see that all three books are from...  

Annie Jones [00:33:36] A year of smaller presses. Which is I wonder when the last time that happened. Maybe that happens more regularly than I think, but that seems unusual to me.  

Hunter [00:33:47] It is, yeah. Typically, there's one or two. I know with the National Book Award, which to be fair, there are like more books to be chosen. But for the National Book Award, there's always like the one that's like from Gray Wolf or Ten House or something. But don't really see it happen that often with more than one book.  

Annie Jones [00:34:04] While we're discussing the Pulitzer of it all, I really loved this book. I immediately thought of Marilynne Robinson. Obviously you've got a male character on his deathbed. You also have a lot really about theology and religion kind of quietly. It's a little bit quieter in this book, I think, than in Marilynne Robinson's. Our main character isn't a Unitarian preacher, but you get a lot of that. And you can tell that Paul Harding has done reading outside of maybe just fiction, but you can tell that he also maybe perhaps does a lot of religious reading. But the other author I immediately thought of was Elizabeth Strout. And I looked on the Pulitzer website and Olive Kitteridge won the previous year. And so, I'm so curious what you think about the New England of it all. And it's not just Elizabeth, if you go back through the Pulitzer list, it's also the Shipping News, which I'm pretty sure is a New England story. Lots of New England stories. And why is that? Is that because if these books are uniquely American in their storytelling we're drawn to the oldest parts of our country, and so we are curious about the tales that they tell? But it seems when you look at the Pulitzer List, there's far more representation from the New England contingency than the West. There are Western stories. There's Lonesome Dove. There's the Denis Johnson book. But there's not a ton of Southern representation, right? There are few, but it feels like New England is most represented.  

Hunter [00:35:44] I think this is going to be possibly like a hot take. But I think that one of the reasons why, while it's not quite as many Southern books, is because I think that sometimes discussing racism in America kind of goes in and out of fashion for people. I think frequently there's just a greater awareness of racism in American literature in the South. And actually, I think about the few books that take place in the South that have been winners and finalists like the Underground Railroad or the Sport of Kings and stuff, and they are all dealing with racism. And then I think that some of the more Western stuff can sometimes deal with toxic masculinity without even realizing it.  

Annie Jones [00:36:34] Mm-hmm.  

Hunter [00:36:35] And I think that could be uncomfortable for some readers.  

Annie Jones [00:36:37] Yeah.  

Hunter [00:36:38] And so, I think that the New England thing is a little bit more of like this safe America in a way sometimes.  

Annie Jones [00:36:44] Oh, interesting.  

Hunter [00:36:46] Yeah. I don't know if that's true, but that's kind of like how it felt to me. It feels like the safe place to go. Whatever you do, you know?  

Annie Jones [00:36:54] Yeah. The hard scrabble New England landscape. I went to the Boston area this past winter, and I loved reading this after going there because I was like, "Oh, I know about the North Shore." Like, yeah, I've been there. I can I can definitely place this. And it's such a unique landscape that I certainly do think lends itself to the literary.  

Hunter [00:37:24] Yes.  

Annie Jones [00:37:25] There's no denying that there's a rich literary history there. There's references in Tinkers, obviously, to Hawthorne. We've already talked about a little bit on The Scarlet Letter, but obviously there's a rich literary history there that I think probably is due in part just to the landscape itself. When you go there, there's so much to reflect on. And even when you read books like Olive Kitteridge or like this one, the characters just feel scrappy. I don't know. I don't know another way to put it. It just feels like if you can survive a winter in New England, you can survive anything. Or at least that's what these authors want us to think. I would argue that if you can survive a southern summer, you can survive anything. But I guess we all have our biases.  

Hunter [00:38:05] Does that area have like all four seasons?  

Annie Jones [00:38:07] Yes.  

Hunter [00:38:09] See, that's another thing. Writers, they're like I want all the seasons.  

Annie Jones [00:38:17] Yes. They almost have to place the book there in order to get it all in. Which, speaking of seasons, the natural world plays a big part in this book. And one of the books we read last year for Backlist Book Club was Annie Dillard's Pilgrim at Tinker Creek. And in a similar way, while I was reading this book, some of those passages, there's this really intense scene where Howard's father-- I think this was Howard. Howard's father has been taken. I'm pretty sure it was Howard. And he, like, eases into the creek and he sits in it overnight. Do you remember this scene? And he wants to stay in the creek overnight. And obviously that's not doable for a child, and ultimately people come to get him. But the kind of sinks down in it. And the way that he describes the silt and the trout and the surrounding landscape and the shadows and the trees, it all reminded me so much of Annie Dillard. And I loved Pilgrim at Tinker Creek, but that was a book-- and I keep going back to your word of demand because I think it's so true. But that was a book where I sat fully expecting to read it in a day or two, and I had to reread over and over again. Not because it was bad or because it was maybe in part because it was hard, but really because it was rich. Because I kept thinking, wait, Annie. I think my brain is trained at this point to skim or to read fast, and so I really have to work hard to not do that. And a lot of these Pulitzer winners, particularly the ones dealing with the natural world, I'm catching myself almost shrugging off, "Oh, yeah, I know what a tree looks like." And then it's like, "Wait, Annie. But do you know how Paul Harding describes a tree? Like, do you know how Annie Dillard describes a creek? Like, go back, reread it." My brain is having to be retrained, I think, while reading these books. That being said, when I think of books set in the natural world, immediately think of Pilgrim at Tinker Creek. As a bookseller, I think of Overstory. Would you include Tinkers in that?  

Hunter [00:40:19] I think so, yeah. And I think that that's the thing too, because we talk about the American landscape and I know that we think about the people and the the everything, but I do think that the actual landscape, like the earth itself does play a big part. Because I think that we feel an inherent sense of wanting to connect to the land. And there's a complicated history that goes along with that, too. I also think that maybe because this is-- in my head, I always think like this still is like newer for us. And so, I think that it's not the history that there is in other places or whatever history was there is not there anymore. And so, I think that like in a way there's this really complicated, complex feeling that we're all kind of grappling with. And I think that whether we know it or not that we're doing, is I think that's part of the reason why it's considered in American literature. I think that Tinkers would be definitely that because it didn't expose all those things. Like you said, the Overstory. There's a book called Greenwood that came out a while back. Barkskins by Annie Proulx, which was in Netflix. I think a lot of these books there's a complicated history with America's nature.  

Annie Jones [00:41:45] And who it belongs to.  

Hunter [00:41:46] Yeah. I think that's an interesting thing to explore, whether we realize it or not.  

Annie Jones [00:41:51] Okay. I guess I'm just curious about your overall feelings. I did not know. So often when we do these Pulitzer books, either mostly it's that you have read them and I have not. So, this feels unusual because neither one of us had read it before.  

Hunter [00:42:04] Yeah.  

Annie Jones [00:42:05] And so, I'm curious your overall thoughts, opinions. Are you glad you read it? Is it five stars? We hate to rate these Pulitzer winners. But tell me your overarching thoughts.  

Hunter [00:42:15] I definitely think this is a five read. I also think talking about time, I think that this book actually has some really weird small connections to Swamplandia, and I will explain that at some point later. We talked about this ending. It's a beautiful ending. And same as you, I cried at the end. I was like, oh, this is making me emotional.  

Annie Jones [00:42:44] I didn't know that I would. I really didn't. I really liked it, but I was like, oh, is this going to move me? And it did. And we have discussed at length previously that if a book and an author stick a landing, then for me that's how I know it was excellent. This book was excellent throughout, but the ending still managed to surprise me even though the whole time you know this book is about a man who dies.  

Hunter [00:43:08] It's so funny because you text me and I wasn't quite towards the end and you were like, oh, [inaudible]. I'm connected to it. And it's like the last page and a half, the ending, it's that time shift again that it's so perfect here. Because the thing is that I think the best books, the best writers, they teach you how to read them as you go. And this book is preparing you for how this book is going to end. And when it happens you're ready, but you're not like emotionally ready. And then you're like, oh, the tears. 

Annie Jones [00:43:49] Yeah, you're weirdly surprised by it. Even though the whole book you kind of-- maybe if you were to reread it, you would know what's coming.  

Hunter [00:43:58] Also, I do have to say I read the last year's National Book Award winner, The Rabbit Hutch.  

Annie Jones [00:44:05] Yes.  

Hunter [00:44:06] Which I had mixed feelings about.  

Annie Jones [00:44:08] Mm-hmm.  

Hunter [00:44:09] This book does something very similarly in that, that book basically tells you that the girl is going to die at the end. And this book is doing a similar thing where it's like eight days before.  

Annie Jones [00:44:20] Yes.  

Hunter [00:44:21] I would just say this book does what it's supposed to be doing. So, if you've read both, I need someone to talk to me about it.  

Annie Jones [00:44:30] Yeah, I finished this and I did think to myself, "Why do I love a book about grief?" Like, why do I love a book about death? And I think it probably has to do with my religious upbringing, but I don't even know if it has to do with my religious upbringing as much as it has to do with my religious adulthood, where my favorite days and moments of the church calendar are the ones that remind us that we are dust. I love Ash Wednesday; I love All Saints Sunday. I love being reminded that from dust we came and unto dust we will return. And so, any of these books that kind of deal with that and deal with legacy or deal with longing and what happens at the end of life, all of those things are fascinating to me. I don't think I'm alone in that. But I do think it's interesting that as a culture we don't love talking about death very much, and frequently we're not quite sure we have the words for it. And so, I love when an author does have the words for it and is able to beautifully encapsulate what grief looks like, what aging looks like. That's another thing that I just don't think we talk about as a culture. I love these books where it's these older protagonists because I read a lot of books with young coming of age stories. And I love those. I really do love those. Just like we all came of age, we are all going to die. I want to read books that show me how, I guess. Is that weird?  

Hunter [00:46:07] No. Also, I do have a very quick question, which you don't have this problem. If you listened to me before on here, I don't typically like books about men.  

Annie Jones [00:46:19] Yes, that's true.  

Hunter [00:46:21] Yeah. As I was reading, that's the thing that I think threw me the most was I was like, wow, there's like just a bunch of men.  

Annie Jones [00:46:28] Yes. And it really is just a bunch of men. There's a couple of women who play very minor roles and they're interesting. They don't feel one note, they feel interesting. I could read a book about them. I actually think if he wanted to do a companion novel...  

Hunter [00:46:42] Like a quartet type Gilead thing?  

Annie Jones [00:46:45] Yes. If he wanted to go back and write about Howard's wife in particular, I would be very interested in that. But you're right, this is a book about men and masculinity. Yeah, I am surprised you liked it.  

Hunter [00:46:59] I know, me too.  

Annie Jones [00:47:03] Well, Hunter, this has been a delight. We are going to do this again in August, and we've already picked our book. Do you want to tell the name of it?  

Hunter [00:47:10] Did we pick the short story collection?  

Annie Jones [00:47:12] Yes, we did.  

Hunter [00:47:12] Okay. We're doing Interpreter of Maladies by Jhumpa Lahiri. I'm showing it even though you can't see it. If you're kind of hesitant about short story collections, I think this is actually a really good one because I think that they all feel complete enough where you don't feel like you're just left questioning. Like, you have questions, but you're not feeling kind of --left whatever. Interpreter Of Maladies. Not to be mistaken for the Emperor of Maladies, which was a nonfiction Pulitzer winner, I think.  

Annie Jones [00:47:44] That's right. Okay. Interpreter of Maladies. I'm excited about this one because I've never read her before, and it's been a long time since you and I have talked about a short story collection.  

Hunter [00:47:52] That's true. And also for anyone who is interested in reading her, in the meantime you should read her book The Lowland, which I thought was beautiful.  

Annie Jones [00:48:03] Wonderful. So, we will do this again in August. Thank you, Hunter. I can't wait.  

Hunter [00:48:06] Yay!  

Annie Jones [00:48:11] This week, what I'm reading is brought to you by the 102nd Annual Rose show and Festival here in Thomasville, Georgia. Come visit us for the weekend of April 28th through 29th and experience the flowers, fun, food and shopping in beautiful Thomasville. Plan your visit at ThomasvilleGA.com.  

[00:48:29] This coming weekend, my parents are coming to the store with my aunt and uncle and we are going to decorate the store windows for the annual window display contest. This is one of my favorite parts of Rose Show and Festival. If you come to Thomasville the Friday, Saturday or Sunday of Rose Show, you can walk the Brick streets on Broad and on Jackson and you can see all of the beautiful rose inspired window displays by our fellow merchants and shop owners. It is so fun to see creativity come to life, and I love that Rose Show is now not just these beautiful roses and orchids that are in these tents throughout downtown. It's almost in the air and it's in the shops. It just becomes an entire community event. And I think the window display contest adds a lot to that. Obviously, we would love if you voted for us, but that's not what this is about. This is about the fact that you can come to Thomasville and you can truly window shop. You can browse and see the creativity and the beauty our city has to offer and the wonderful genius minds who run and design our fellow businesses. And so, please come to downtown Thomasville and enjoy the gorgeous window displays that are prepared for you during Rose Show weekend. This week I'm listening to Happy Place by Emily Henry. Hunter, what are you reading?  

Hunter [00:49:48] I'm reading Rouge by Mona Awad.  

Annie Jones [00:49:50] Thank you again to our sponsor, the 102nd Annual Rose Show and Festival here in Thomasville, Georgia. Plan your upcoming visit at ThomasvilleGA.com.  

From the Front Porch is a weekly podcast production of The Bookshelf, an independent bookstore in Thomasville, Georgia. You can follow The Bookshelf’s daily happenings on Instagram at @bookshelftville, and all the books from today’s episode can be purchased online through our store website: bookshelfthomasville.com A full transcript of today’s episode can be found at:  fromthefrontporchpodcast.com  Special thanks to Studio D Podcast Production for production of From the Front Porch and for our theme music, which sets the perfect warm and friendly tone for our Thursday conversations. Our Executive Producers are… 

Donna Hetchler 

Cammy Tidwell 

Chantalle C. 

Kate O'Connell 

Executive Producers (Read Their Own Names): 

Nicole Marsee 

Wendi Jenkins 

Laurie Johnson 

Annie Jones: If you’d like to support From the Front Porch, please leave a review on Apple Podcasts. Your input helps us make the show even better and reach new listeners. All you have to do is open up the Podcast App on your phone, look for From the Front Porch, scroll down until you see ‘Write a Review’ and tell us what you think. Or, if you’re so inclined, support us over on Patreon, where we have 3 levels of support - Front Porch Friends, Book Club Companions, and Bookshelf Benefactors. Each level has an amazing number of benefits like bonus content, access to live events, discounts, and giveaways. Just go to: patreon.com/fromthefrontporch We’re so grateful for you, and we look forward to meeting back here next week.