Episode 503 || Eat Like a Heroine with Lorilee Cracker and Jenny Williams
This week on From the Front Porch, we’re preparing for the holidays and forgoing our traditional episode format to bring you an author interview with Lorilee Cracker and Jenny Williams, authors of Eat Like a Heroine. This beautiful book contains wisdom on how to eat, picnic, comfort, host and more like your favorite literary heroines and is perfect for gift-giving. Annie, Lorilee, and Jenny chat about food in literature and what our childhood heroines can teach us in adulthood.
To purchase the books mentioned in this episode, stop by The Bookshelf in Thomasville, visit our website (search “Episode 503” to find the books mentioned in this episode), or download and shop on The Bookshelf’s official app:
Eat Like a Heroine by Jenny Williams and Lorilee Craker
From the Front Porch is a weekly podcast production of The Bookshelf, an independent bookstore in South Georgia. You can follow The Bookshelf’s daily happenings on Instagram, Tiktok, and Facebook, and all the books from today’s episode can be purchased online through our store website, www.bookshelfthomasville.com.
A full transcript of today’s episode can be found below.
Thank you to this week’s sponsor, Thomasville, Georgia. There is something truly special about the holiday season in Downtown Thomasville. The twinkling lights, beautifully decorated store windows, and holiday events all add to the festive feeling of the season.
Let us be your shopping and dining destination this holiday season, so spend Christmas in Thomasville with us. Activities are held every weekend leading up to Christmas, including this year’s 38th Annual Victorian Christmas on December 12 and 13. Learn more by visiting thomasvillega.com or call 229-228-7977.
Special thanks to Dylan and his team at Studio D Podcast Production for sound and editing and for our theme music, which sets the perfect warm and friendly tone for our Thursday conversations.
This week, Annie is reading Penitence by Kristin Koval.
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Our Executive Producers are...Jennifer Bannerton, Stephanie Dean, Linda Lee Drozt, Ashley Ferrell, Susan Hulings, Wendi Jenkins, Martha, Nicole Marsee, Gene Queens, Cammy Tidwell, and Amanda Whigham.
Transcript:
[squeaky porch swing] Welcome to you from the Front Porch, a conversational podcast about books, small business and life in the South. [music plays out]
What a lovely lesson from the heroines. That good company, a few delicious trifles and a dash of out of the ordinary is often all we need to remember that there is more to the story than our limited point of view.
Lorilee Craker and Jenny Williams, Eat Like a Heroine. [as music fades out]
I'm Annie Jones, owner of The Bookshelf, an independent bookstore in beautiful downtown Thomasville, Georgia. And today, in honor of the impending holiday season, we are breaking with our more traditional episode format to bring you an author interview with Laura Lee Kraker and Jenni Williams, the writer and illustrator behind Eat Like a Heroine, a beautiful book, perfect for gift giving this holiday season. Together, the three of us will be chatting about food and literature and what our childhood heroines can teach us in adulthood. Hi, Jenny. Hi, Laura Lee.
Jenny Williams [00:01:17] Hi, Annie. Thanks so much for having us.
Lorilee Craker [00:01:20] Hi, Annie.
Annie Jones [00:01:21] I'm so glad you all are here. This is such a delight. We don't do a ton of other interviews anymore. I do some on Patreon, but just because of scheduling and things like that, it can be tough. But I was so thrilled and honored to be asked to endorse y’all’s book back when it released a few months ago. And so it's so wonderful to get to bring you on the show. I do want to talk a little bit about how the two of you began working together, because when we got on to record, it occurred to me, Lorilee is in Michigan. Jenny is in Oklahoma. So how did these two women start to collaborate and work together? So Lorilee, I'm going to kick it to you first and maybe you can talk about how you and Jenny met and maybe how you began to work on this project together.
Lorilee Craker [00:02:05] Sure. I would love to answer that question. So it was about seven years ago, I think, now. Right, Jenny? Something like that.
Jenny Williams [00:02:15] Yes I can't believe it. Because if I'm judging by my children's ages seven sounds about right. Yes.
Lorilee Craker [00:02:22] Yeah. Well, Jenny had read my 2015 memoir, Anne of Green Gables, My Daughter and Me. And so she reached out to me in my Instagram DMs, and at that point, I didn't really understand Instagram DMs to be honest. And I so I basically ignored it or I didn't see it or I didn't even know it was there for quite a while. And somehow maybe Jenny reached out again very bravely because if you don't hear from someone you're like, well, they don't want to talk to me.
Jenny Williams [00:03:01] I didn't make that assumption. I assumed the truth which was that you didn't see it.
Annie Jones [00:03:09] Things get lost.
Jenny Williams [00:03:10] I think I emailed you next. I didn't give up on you. We will be friends.
Lorilee Craker [00:03:17] Yes, we will be and we are. My goodness. So then next thing you know, we are hosting contests together. For several years we did a thing called 12 Days of Instagram, which was a photo prompt. And that was really fun. And we had people from, my goodness, all over Asia and Europe and North America just posting photos to Ann of Green Gables prompts. So after that we were really in sync. And so basically that friendship then led to a book idea which led to me being on a plane to Oklahoma City. And here we are five years later.
Jenny Williams [00:04:07] Just like that. I know.
Annie Jones [00:04:10] So Jenny, you slid into her DMs to try to [crosstalk].
Jenny Williams [00:04:15] This is our meet cute.
Annie Jones [00:04:17] Jenny you and I are friends on Instagram and we connected because you are an illustrator, you own your own business and we have maybe collaborated a little bit here or there. So can you tell listeners about that a bit before we continue talking about Eat Like a Heroine?
Jenny Williams [00:04:33] Sure, yes. So my business is called Carrot Top Paper Shop. It's an online shop for book lovers. And I live here in Oklahoma City and do all from home. So, yeah, I guess we bonded over-- I think in my email to Lorilee, I said I love heroines, too. Look at my shop; we're destined to be friends and we share the same love of Ann.
Annie Jones [00:04:56] And so it sounds like once you're connected on your mutual love and appreciation for some of the classic heroines, including perhaps especially Anne Shirley, then this idea for Eat Like a Heroine kind of came into being. And so, Lorilee, when you got on the plane and you went to Oklahoma, what were you thinking was going to become of this? So you had written already, you had the 2015 memoir. And so what did you think could happen when the two of you began working creatively together?
Lorilee Craker [00:05:29] Well, the way it came about was actually I was reading a newspaper article about a book called The Jane Austen Diet, which is a book that we use for Eat Like a Heroine. But one of the subheads of the article was Eat Like a Heroine. And I knew that Jenny loved food and loved talking about food. And I also love food and I love writing about food. So it just came to me almost-- I won't say fully baked, but I would say it really came to me in a flash that Jenny and I should write this book together about food and literary heroines and what can they teach us. So I went to Oklahoma City with plans to hammer out what this could look like. And really those initial sessions that we had of our ideas for chapters and things like that, they ended up pretty much all being in the book with some variations. Yeah.
Annie Jones [00:06:36] I think listeners might be curious because these listeners obviously of our show we are all avid readers, but many of us are also aspiring writers. And so I think there's a lot of curiosity behind the publishing process and the writing process. I'm always intrigued when there are two authors and how two people come together creatively. Sometimes you hear about these writers who never meet, like they just connect via Google Docs or something like that. And so I'm curious a little bit about the writing process itself. Maybe, Jenny, you can talk about that a little bit and then maybe Lorilee you can share a little bit about the publishing process.
Jenny Williams [00:07:13] Yeah. Annie, I had all the same questions. And so by this time in our friendship, I felt like I had obviously built a trust with Lorilee and especially she had kind of already become a writing mentor and a lot of ways. And I had told her that I had dreams of becoming an author one day. And so when she came to me with this idea, I was like okay. I mean, yes, I am in, but I have lots of questions. And one of them was how do you write a book with another person? So Lorilee has written-- was this book number 16 for you Lorilee? Eat Like a Heroine was?
Lorilee Craker [00:07:48] Yeah.
Annie Jones [00:07:48] Wow!
Jenny Williams [00:07:48] So, yes, tons of experience. I'm just so grateful. I feel like I could not have had a better first author experience just because all my stupid questions were directed at Lorilee. But so yes, writing a book together, she had done it several times with Lynn Spears, to name one Britney Spears's mom. So we joked about how--
Lorilee Craker [00:08:13] True. Weird but true.
Annie Jones [00:08:17] What a fun fact to throw out at parties.
Jenny Williams [00:08:18] I know.
Lorilee Craker [00:08:20] People are electrified by that, I'm telling you.
Jenny Williams [00:08:24] And while we're talking about heroines. Anyway, so basically I think the very technical aspect is yes it is a Google doc. But I think meeting in person and brainstorming together and then coming up with that outline in person did wonders. Because we felt like we had a pretty good blueprint. And then writing the proposal together, Annie you know that's a-- I almost feel like once the proposal is written, the hard part is done because you have such a blueprint that is ready to go and then you just kind of fill in the blanks once you get to sign the contract. So I felt like the writing process was kind of a little bit trial and error at first to see what our group was. But once we found it, I feel like it was honestly very seamless. We would just reconnect on the phone and say this is what I'm passionate about, this is what I really want to write about, what are you thinking? And then we kind of just filled in the gaps. One person might start, the other might finish. And I would say it was pretty seamless. How about you, Lorilee?
Lorilee Craker [00:09:31] Yeah, I feel the same way. I feel like once we got into that groove and we figured out what our strengths were and how to collaborate, so I would get a sense of I think Jenny should write this. Jenny's more passionate about, say, college [inaudible]. It's so funny because we're very different in some ways. We're very much the same and in other ways. But I'm a refrigerated pie crust person and Jenny is a homemade pie crust person. And you'll see from some of the recipes in the book that my recipes a monkey could make them. If monkeys had crock pots then they could make these recipes. And Jenny's are more by and large more chef(y) and elaborate and homemade per say. So anyway, we just knew each other so well by this point that that we really just bounced off each other and, you know, kind of established like what Jenny would be best at writing and what I would be best at writing. And it just flowed from there.
Annie Jones [00:10:59] Well, it sounds like this wasn't some kind of partnership that was brought together by a big publisher corporation or something like that. This was flowed out from your natural friendship and camaraderie. And then I do think it makes a lot of sense to me that meeting together, brainstorming, working on a proposal, getting that outline down probably was-- I'm sure there were harder parts throughout, but getting that down does feel like you've really conquered a milestone. And so because you were already friends and had a relationship, then probably the ease of the partnership could develop from there because you'd already met and talked about some of these harder parts in person. So once you had written this proposal or you had this idea for this book, again, I do think there's so much-- we were talking off air, there's so much mystery around publishing and it feels like such a nebulous, like, how does this happen kind of thing. And sometimes I think demystifying it for people is so helpful. So where did the process come for you post proposal? Lorilee, what kind of happened next?
Lorilee Craker [00:12:09] So almost immediately after we finished our proposal, we got an agent. And that's not always easy to find an agent either. And so he started shopping it and he was very enthusiastic about it. And I had written all these other books before, and I had worked with traditional publishers like Water Brook and Baker and Thomas Nelson and Hachette. And so I just thought, well, and this book is not necessarily a Christian book either. I mean, it's just for everybody, really. And so most of my contacts were in the Christian market. And so I think we had a really hard time selling it. And it got to the point it was about a year and a half process. It really was a marathon. And we'd get close and then no.
[00:13:15] And I know this, that publishers are always looking for a reason to turn you down. And that's just the naked truth of it. And so it was very discouraging at times, but yet we really believed in this concept so much so we actually started a podcast, Eat Like a Heroine. We have about 10 episodes out. Because we were so passionate about this material and this concept that we thought, well, even if we don't get a book out there, we can put this out on a podcast. So we're going to continue the podcast. But we ended up at one point there was a publisher that was very interested in it as a cookbook. This was over a Thanksgiving break, I remember, which is not great for us at all.
Annie Jones [00:14:16] Not ideal.
Lorilee Craker [00:14:18] And we practically had to write a whole new proposal for it as a cookbook. And then we ended up turning that publisher down because for several reasons. But the biggest one I think was we just envisioned this as a full length nonfiction book. We were open to a cookbook down the road and there are 12 recipes in the book. But we ended up going with a small woman owned publisher called End Game Press. And I think they did a really beautiful job with Jenny's illustrations and the writing and the format. So it was a whopper of a process. I remember back in 2002, I got a three book deal from off an email that I wrote and it was like low hanging fruit. And those days are gone.
Annie Jones [00:15:26] Yeah. Well, I think just when I talk to-- obviously, as a bookseller, we work a lot with local independently self-published authors. And everybody is constantly trying to figure out how do you break in? And it's so challenging because not only is it obviously an industry where it very much is about personal connections or who you know, but also publishing has become a lot about platform. And so nobody wants to talk about that. But I know that part of the reason I was able to get a book deal, I don't think it would have happened for me 15 years ago. I think part of the reason it happened now is because of the podcast. It's because of The Bookshelf. And so if you don't have those things, even if you're an amazingly talented storyteller or writer, I think it's incredibly difficult to break into the industry. And it's so interesting to me because I think it's a beautiful book and an easy sell in a bookstore. And this is what's so interesting about the publishing process; I would think it'd be an easy sell to a publisher because at least at The bookshelf, books about books are extremely popular.
[00:16:36] And books with the nostalgia factor, which we'll talk about in a second, and books about classic literature, those sell very well for us. But I've had conversations with publishers or even with my own agent when I was talking about essays I wanted to include. And I remember my agent was like, "Well, books about books don't always sell." And I was thinking, books about books always sell. At least for my anecdotal personal evidence. And so it's so interesting what publishers see and the data they get versus somebody like me who's a bookseller that my audience is primarily avid readers because they love independent bookstores, they love indie bookstores, and so they love books about books.
[00:17:21] And when I saw y’all’s book and I immediately thought, oh, I loved a book several years ago called Voracious, which was this book about kid lit and it included recipes and I loved that book. I devoured it, pun intended, over Christmas break. I thought it was so charming. And this book to me because of the illustrations, too, is such a beautiful and easy gift. And so it's fascinating what a publisher might know or might interpret versus what a lay reader or a bookseller might think. So, Jenny, I think you and I are maybe a little bit close in age. And one of the things that was appealing to me about Eat Like a Heroine is I think millennials-- and other generations, too, but I think millennials love a nostalgia trip. I think we've seen American Girl just came out with grown up Halloween costumes.
Jenny Williams [00:18:14] I haven't seen that. I'm on their email list, but I haven't seen that.
Annie Jones [00:18:20] I think you'd make a great Kirsten. I feel like that's the vibe.
Jenny Williams [00:18:24] I love Kirsten. Oh, my goodness. We could talk about those for hours.
Annie Jones [00:18:27] Yeah. So I feel like when I looked at Eat Like a Heroine-- and maybe it was my experience, Jenny, with your illustrations already and how much you love classic literature and the women and the girls of classic lit-- it just took me right back to childhood and to the characters I loved as a kid. And so I wondered, Jenny, for you as you wrote and illustrated, what did you notice about these characters that we loved as kids that now you were perhaps re encountering as an adult while you worked on this book?
Jenny Williams [00:18:59] I love that question so much. It's such a great question because it's something I thought a lot about in my business, which I started almost nine years ago now for my oldest daughter when I found out I was having a girl. That was the thing I'm most excited about, is sharing my love of reading and specifically these heroines that totally shaped the way I saw the world and the way I viewed myself. And actually, American Girl probably had a lot to do with that too while we're talking about things from the 90s. But I knew that it was more than that. It's not that I just have fond memories of reading Green Gables as a child. And I think that's what the women that were buying from my shop they could see that, too. That it's not just this pleasant feeling that you get like I remember all these things. It's kind of like when we see a CD that we loved in high school. It's not that CDs are so nostalgic. It's everything that brings up like driving in your car with your friends. There's something deeper. I don't do that anymore. I don't drive in the car with my friends with the music blaring.
[00:20:07] So I feel like this book really helped us get at what is it about these novels that we loved as children that maybe we've forgotten? Or when we reread them, we think, that's why I loved this and here's why I love it even more. They offer so much. Again, I think that's part of the definition of a classic, is that they're timeless but even in your own life. You can read them at a different phase and you remember this person that you used to be 10 years ago, 20 years ago. And you can see even how your perspectives changed. I hated Josie Pye when I was 13. I was so angry; I couldn't understand the grudge she had against Gilbert. Like, why is it so hard? And then now as an adult, you're like, I don't know. It just makes me more compassionate. Your own views change. Other people's views change. It depends on where you're standing. A lot of things. So anyway, I love like the cute with depth behind it. I say that about my brand. It's not just the nostalgia. There's just so much to be peeled away and so much room for discussion.
Annie Jones [00:21:15] I think for a lot of us it's rooted in identity. I think over I'm pretty sure during the pandemic, Jordan, my husband and I read From the Mixed-Up Files of Mrs. Basil E. Frankweiler together. And I had read that as a kid. I don't think Jordan had, if I'm not mistaken. And so we were reading it out loud together, and Jordan was like, "You're such a Claudia." And I was like, "Am I such a Claudia?" And it was realizing because in that book she has, I believe, a younger brother. She's fiercely independent. And you all of a sudden realize, oh, I did read that as a kid and I probably did make that a really large part of my identity. And then as an adult, Little Women is a great example. I always identified with Joe and I always thought it was because Joe was ambitious and a writer and a tomboy. But then I realized recently when I reread it, I was like, Joe also doesn't want to grow up. She doesn't like things to change. She likes everybody to stay the same. And I am very much that way. And so you start to unpack a lot of different things about these heroines that shaped who you were as a kid and maybe also shaped who you are as a grown up. Which maybe brings me to another question that is a little bit about nostalgia or identity.
[00:22:37] But just last night I was with the women in my book club and we were talking about how serious adulthood is, and we're constantly having to make serious, hard decisions or we're having serious conversations or we're focusing on an upcoming election or whatever. And we were talking about the importance of play. And I've seen this in The New York Times. I write about it a little bit in my own book. But I have some friends in my life who are so good at being playful and who are good about maybe engaging with the less than serious. And there is so much about Eat Like a Heroine that is playful. One of the chapters, I think it's one of the very first chapters in the book, is about picnics. And certainly I was like, let me see, could I take a picnic this weekend? Could I pack one up? And so, Lorilee I wonder if you could talk a little bit about the playfulness of the book. I think so often we can think play is an important. Play isn't something to be taken seriously. But I think a lot of these heroines have a lot to show us about retaining our playfulness well into adulthood and how that could actually help save us a little bit.
Lorilee Craker [00:23:50] For sure. You talked about the picnicking chapter, and that's exactly what I think of when I think about playfulness in the book. I mean, what could be more idyllic childhood memories other than a picnic? It really evokes that. And yet you're bringing food out, you're eating on the ground, on the grass or on the beach or something. And you're not at your normal everyday table and it's just a change of scenery. And it is a very playful process. And I think we just really leaned into humor in this book. We love to laugh. That's one of the reasons we love Lucy Maud Montgomery so much is because she is hilarious. Jane Austen was also very witty.
Annie Jones [00:24:50] Yes.
Lorilee Craker [00:24:51] Not all the heroines are witty like that, but those two especially are just hilarious. And I think even just like our chapter Obsessed Like a Heroine was about weird food trends. And we probably each have our favorites, but I cannot get over for the rest of my life the fact that the fanciest thing you could have at one of Jane Austin's balls, like at a Regency ball, was a marzipan hedgehog which was lying in a quagmire of literally deer juice.
Jenny Williams [00:25:40] That's sounds appealing.
Annie Jones [00:25:43] That sounds delicious. That sounds yummy.
Lorilee Craker [00:25:46] My goodness! I just imagine these women in their regency gowns just approaching the table to gaze at the marzipan hedgehog and all its horrifying glory. And so we just had so much fun with it. There were so many things to laugh at. And I think when we can laugh along with our favorite book heroines, we can laugh more easily at ourselves.
Annie Jones [00:26:19] That's beautiful. And I think, too, part of the reason the book is playful and to me brought out a spirit of play, is probably because there was a world in which and a way in which this was a playful project for both of you. Getting to write alongside a friend, getting to dive into these characters you both loved as children and now love as adults, I think that spirit of play that perhaps maybe even you unwittingly embody that comes across in the book. There's definitely a humorous, playful spirit to the book that I loved as I was reading it. I would love to know, as a bookseller, we're always asking who is this book for? Who can I put this in the hands of? Who is this book for? So when you were going through the proposal process, when you were brainstorming together, who did you think Eat Like a Heroine is for? Who was the target audience? What did you want them to find in the pages of your book? Maybe Jenny you can start and then Lorilee will ask you the same question.
Jenny Williams [00:27:22] Yeah, I would say broadly it was anyone who is familiar with these heroines and loves them. So even if it's not that they read all the books as a child, but maybe they read a few of them now, or maybe they're just familiar with all the movie adaptations, they're familiar with the stories. But we really wanted-- again, we're talking about this theme of playfulness. We wanted someone who felt tired or weary to be able to pick it up and just feel not like-- we say this, too, it's not a diet book in any way. There are no rules. It's not a checklist of like if you want to Eat Like a Heroine, here's how to do it. It leaves so much room for interpretation. And the resounding theme is you're probably doing more than you think you are. You're probably you're probably eating like a heroine in a lot of ways that you don't think of as heroic or as actually being beneficial to your friends and your community. So we mentioned this at the Michigan book launch, but one of our favorite reviews, our early reviews on Amazon, it was a young mom and she said "This book made me feel more like myself than I have in several months.".
[00:28:32] And that really touched us both because that's what it is. Being a heroine is not about comparing or saying that person hosts dinner parties; I need to host more dinner parties. It's looking at saying like I'm always intimidated by dinner parties, but you know what I do really well? Feeding children, making children feel safe. Yes, it's affirming what you're good at, leaning more into that. Having this mindset of you're not the victim. Acknowledge, recognize all the things you can't do and then put on your heroine tap and say, but what can I do? And now I'm going to do it with gusto. And I get that vibe from you and your bookstore a lot. I just love your tone on social media. I feel like that was one of the reasons why you instantly came to mind as an endorser for this project. So we both were, like, Annie's going to get this. She knows about what food can do in community and all the little ways that we can love each other are not insurmountable.
Annie Jones [00:29:39] I'm glad you mentioned this. It's one of the things I liked about your book, was I love-- we talked off air Lorilee and I did about our mutual love and admiration for Shauna Niequist. I just finished Ina Garten's memoir. I love food. I love reading about food. I cook almost exclusively Blue Apron meals, and that is my season of life. And so sometimes I can walk away from books about food or cooking and think, okay, but now I've got a big something. And the reality is my life currently is not conducive to that. And so there's a reason I make Blue Apron meals and it's because I'm tired at the end of the day and I cannot measure anything. I can't do it. And so one of the things I liked about this book was I finished reading it and didn't feel like I got to go put on my chef hat. It really did make me feel like I'm already doing some of this stuff.
[00:30:28] I'm already I'm already doing some of this stuff. And I might not be the world's best cook, but I'm a great eater and I love eating food and I love going to restaurants. And again, the concept of the picnic or a party or something like that. So I think that's a great point that you're making and perhaps that's the reason that the proposal surrounding a cookbook maybe didn't take off. I think this function so much better as inspiration but also very much-- I love that review, like, this is what I'm already doing, this is who I already am and these are ways to embody that. Lorilee when you were writing, who were you envisioning kind of reading this book and embracing this book?
Lorilee Craker [00:31:12] Yeah. I think the people that that follow Jenny and I on Instagram, they love books. They just love, love, love books. And whenever we get them started on a conversation like what's your favorite food mentioned in Little House on the Prairie, let's say, and then everyone has an answer. Everyone's like I remember that time Ma made the, I don't know, sugar cakes or whatever for Christmas or the peppermint sticks in the Christmas stocking. And just all these vivid memories I think come out. And so if I could say it in two words, this book is for bookish foodies.
Annie Jones [00:31:59] Yeah.
Lorilee Craker [00:31:59] So people who are bookish and people who love food. I've already established I'm not a chef, but I do like to cook and I do like to read about food and I'm interested in food. And so, I'll read a restaurant review and I'm actually addicted to these online grocery stories. Like Ten New Fall Items at Trader Joe's. And I'm like click, click. So I think people who behave similarly, who will reread Anne of Green Gables every couple of years who love to watch, let's say, Somebody Feed Phill on Netflix. And they also love to see the new Jane Austen adaptation.
Annie Jones [00:32:57] And I think there's a lot of overlap there. Like you're describing me. I love those things. I love how Phil makes me feel at the end of an episode.
Lorilee Craker [00:33:08] Phil, he's a heroine. I'm just going to nominate him as our heroine.
Annie Jones [00:33:13] Yeah. And I love maybe terming it like a bookish foodie. I think I've always thought to be a foodie you have to love a Michelin star restaurant. And it's like, no, you can just like a good meal or love watching your mom cook or whatever. You can love food memories like I love food memories. I like maybe taking some of the connotation out of food that maybe I personally associated as like food snob. And there's no snobbishness in Eat Like a Heroine. Heroines aren't snobby. I think that they're accessible and you've made them accessible. I want to ask each of you-- and I do wonder is this like asking your favorite child? But what chapter of the book is your favorite?
Jenny Williams [00:34:06] That is a lot like asking that, who's your favorite child. So I'll let Lorilee start. Do you have any favorite?
Lorilee Craker [00:34:12] Yeah, I do. I have a hard time with this because honestly after we wrote every chapter, I'm like, this is my favorite. And of course, I can't have 11 favorites. I think when it all comes down to it, I think my favorite chapter is Cozy Like a Heroine. I love the quote that we start out with. It's from Maya Angelou's book I Know Why the Caged Bird Sings. And she says the homey sounds and sense cushioned me. And that, to me, encapsulates how food, how like tea, like you're boiling water for tea or you're steeping tea or you're making soup, this sense even can be cozy. Like you're making cookies and the whole cinnamon scent, the sugary scent fills the house and it fills you with a sense of well-being. So food is not just like, I don't know, an accessory, but it really is a conduit. It can be a conduit to feeling cushioned, as Maya Angelou says, from the harder things in life. And we all need to have that cushioning in our lives. And that's why I love this season. October is my favorite month. And especially in Michigan, it's just very crisp and apples and fall foliage-- am I saying that right?
Annie Jones [00:35:48] Foliage. I don't know. I don't see a lot of fall foliage where I live. But I think that's part of the reason I wanted to have you guys on at this time of year, was because I think this episode will run sometime in November. But I wanted it October, November, December. It's like this last quarter of the year. And then for me, even going into January, February, I know some people hate those months, but February is my birth month and so I love February. And to me it's a very cozy time of year after coming off a really hectic time of year because of owning the store and quarter four. So October through February is the cozy season. And your book certainly made me feel cozy and comforted, and I love that quote, cushioned. These are wonderful months of the year, they're still my favorite times of the year.
[00:36:45] But chaos still is afoot. Like there are natural disasters. There is political upheaval. There's all kinds of things going on. But you can still light a candle, you can still preheat your oven every year. I'm not a huge baker, but every October, November, I bake pumpkin bread and sometimes I give it away. Sometimes I don't even eat it because I'm not even a huge pumpkin fan. But I like how my house smells when I cook it, when I bake it, and I like how it makes me feel. I like the act of doing it. And so I think there's something about your book in particular that lends itself to the cozy seasons and to the cozy months. Jenny, do you have a favorite chapter in the book.
Jenny Williams [00:37:28] Or being forced, which I guess I am. I guess I would say I probably Comfort Like a Heroine. The more we wrote this book I feel like food is really one of my love languages. As much as I want to be the person that hosts beautiful dinner parties with beautiful place settings and all of that, that might be like a, I don't know, once every 10 years thing for me. But I really love sending, bringing meals to families who have just had a baby or just gone through surgery. And so our Comfort Like a Heroine chapter is all about like Pollyanna bringing calf's-foot jelly to her sickly friend. And I just think there's nothing like-- well, yeah, you share pumpkin bread. There's just something about bringing a meal to someone that just speaks volumes. It just says something. It's the kind of love that you can see. We quote in our book.
[00:38:23] And there's so much more meaning behind it. You know that that person just took time out of their day to make that or find it for you and bring it to your house. And I think we underestimate-- I guess it was like after we've had children, our church does a mule train. So when we've had children, when people bring us meals, it seems like such a small thing to them if they're not in that phase of life. But you just underestimate the supports, the moral support. And just like this buffeting-- that's not the right word. What's the word? The bolstering power of showing up on someone's doorstep and saying, here you go. You don't have to worry about this. And it always tastes better when someone else brings it to you.
Annie Jones [00:39:10] It does. It absolutely tastes better. People should never worry about that. It tastes better when somebody else makes it.
Jenny Williams [00:39:16] here's so much more in it. You feel seen and loved. So that's kind of what the comfort chapter is about.
Annie Jones [00:39:21] I love that because I've always loved Pollyanna. I think she gets a bad rap just because she can feel naive, but I love her.
Jenny Williams [00:39:31] We agree.
Annie Jones [00:39:31] I also think it's important to note I have a very distinct memory of a dear friend during the pandemic. It was like Thanksgiving weekend and Jordan went ahead and went to his family's, but I had to work. And it was back when we were masking and we were being very careful about who we were exposing. And so I didn't want to go be exposed and then come back and potentially expose my staff or my team. So I stayed home. And I'm highly introverted. So staying home on Thanksgiving was actually not as terrible as it sounds. But I have a dear friend who made me a homemade cinnamon roll and she brought me a homemade cinnamon roll on that morning and just left it on my front porch. And I've never forgotten it, like just one thing. And so I like that it doesn't even have to be like a whole meal. It can just be something that makes us feel like somebody thought of me some. And I love that idea of comforting someone. Okay, is there a heroin-- and this might be again like asking your favorite child or your favorite chapter. But I'm not asking for your favorite. I'm just asking which heroine that you encountered in researching and writing this book did you most identify with over the course of writing? Lorilee we will start with you.
Lorilee Craker [00:40:47] Well, I thought a lot about this. It's an excellent question. I identify a lot with Jo March because she wanted to be a writer and writing was so important to her. But I would say in the end, I would have to pick Anne of Green Gables just because I just think I resonate so much with her. She just sort of goes all in with her whole heart. And then she makes mistakes like nearly poisoning her beloved Sunday school teacher, Mrs. Allen, when she put anodyne liniment in the cake instead of vanilla. And she's always making these mistakes. But then after crying about it and feeling her feelings, she has self-compassion and she says, okay, tomorrow's a new day with no mistakes in it yet. And so I feel like I've learned the most from Anne. And I call her my literary life guru or my literary life coach. And I'm always thinking of an Anne quote.
Annie Jones [00:42:05] She has a lot to say.
Lorilee Craker [00:42:06] She has a lot to say. Just yesterday I was thinking about some potentially stressful things that might be coming up in my life. And then I thought, don't borrow trouble. Don't meet trouble halfway down the road.
Annie Jones [00:42:25] Anne's in your head. She's a voice in your head.
Lorilee Craker [00:42:28] She's in my head. She lives on my shoulder like my better angels. And so I was like, "You're right Anne. I won't." So I just stop that train of thought, changed the channel in my head. And so Anne helps me out every time.
Annie Jones [00:42:46] I think that's such a lovely anecdote, too, because again these heroines have so much more depth than we first realize. Maybe we think Pollyanna is naive and almost like too pure of heart. And maybe we think Anne is just imaginative. But they're more than that. I think Anne is incredibly resilient. Like if you're a perfectionist, Anne is a great saint for you because Anne consistently really makes mistakes and she's okay with that. She apologizes about it. She figures it out. She's stubborn at first, but eventually she recovers and moves on and she doesn't dwell on those mistakes that she makes. And I think that's an admirable lesson that we don't often attribute to Anne. I think we put our heroines in boxes much like we put ourselves perhaps in boxes. And so what a powerful reminder that Anne is even more than her beautiful imagination, I think. Jenny, what about you? What is a heroine or who is a heroine that you came across in writing this book that you were like, oh, she's me?
Jenny Williams [00:43:51] Well, if I had answered first, I probably would have said pretty much the exact same thing as Lorilee, because it always comes back to Anne. But I will say that a lot of the unsung heroines, shall we say, from a lot of these favorite books, even Marilla, I feel like we learned some lessons from her as well. Just how she opened herself up to being changed by Anne, I think she doesn't get a lot of credit for that. I think that really makes her a heroine. But as far as like food things like Beth March and then the March sister's helpful, I guess, the housekeeper, she's also a cook. Hannah. These women that are kind of in the background and happy to be there, but they're the ones that are making you turnovers and putting them into your pockets as you walk to work on a chilly morning. That was Hannah giving Meg and Joe their turnovers that kept their hands warm as they walked to work. And then Beth, who's always just trying to make the home beautiful. I think we can easily dismiss that and look for like, okay, but where's the heroic action? Where are the big things that we can point to and say, like, that's courage. And I just think I learned a lot personally from a lot of those, the heroines that are in the backgrounds that are really doing a lot more than we think.
Annie Jones [00:45:14] Okay. So just my final question as we head into the holiday season, we're heading into Thanksgiving, to Christmas, to the various holidays that people celebrate this time of year. And so what are some tips or some things we might glean from Eat Like a Heroine and the literature and the characters that we love as we embark on this season that I get a lot of joy out of, but also I think a lot of people, particularly women, feel a lot of pressure from. A pressure to host, pressure to extend the exact right amount or type of hospitality. What can we learn from your book, from the characters in the literature we love that can help us maybe have a cozy, comforting holiday season rather than strenuous, stressful one?
Lorilee Craker [00:45:55] Yeah, I would say we have two chapters on hospitality. Pinafore Hospitality, which is casual hospitality, and Puff-sleeved Hospitality. So really with Christmas coming up and Thanksgiving, I think you have a choice. Which one do you want to do? Or maybe you want to do both. But you can scale it down or up to your own capacity and what gives you joy. And I think you're right. As women, we feel like-- I've heard some of my friends say if I didn't work this hard, Christmas wouldn't happen at my house. So we feel like we're carrying the whole thing. And my husband doesn't even really like Christmas because there's so much hoopla and he much prefer like Thanksgiving where he can just sit and eat and watch the football game.
Annie Jones [00:46:56] A little lower key.
Lorilee Craker [00:46:58] Yeah. No one is expecting him to put up a tree or anything like that. So I think that it comes back to compassion for ourselves. I remember a Christmas years ago when I was making wrapping paper out of potato prints. I was frantically making this wrapping paper because my brother and his wife and their children were going to come over for our Christmas gathering. And I look back, I'm like, what was I on at that point? Because I was miserable. But I think I was living into some sort of caricature of something that I needed to be to be like the best aunt. And those kids don't care about the wrapping paper. For sure, they don't care. And I always give my nephews and nieces a book, and now my 16 great nieces and nephews, I give them each book for Christmas. And you know what? They're not always going to love a book for Christmas. And even sometimes they didn't love a book. But what they care about is how I make them feel and that they can count on me for support. So I just think we just need to be very compassionate to ourselves and do what we can do and leave the rest up to other people honestly.
Annie Jones [00:48:32] And maybe know ourselves a little better. This is what I love about having different women in my life, different friends, different matriarchal figures. I have my wonderful mom, but I also have some wonderful aunts, my mother in law. And my mom loves to wrap a present. And her wrapping is beautiful. And I think for the most part, I don't want to speak for her, but I don't think that's stressful to her. I think she genuinely enjoys that. She loves the artistry of it. Like my mother in law does not like that. Gift wrapping is not her thing and other things are her thing. She's a fantastic cook. And so I like looking at women and looking at heroines in my life and in the life of the literature I love and seeing there are so many different ways to be a hostess or there are so many ways to embrace the holiday season and one does not pass judgment on the other.
[00:49:28] So my mom has these beautifully wrapped presents and when I can, t I like to do too. I inherited that from her. I love doing that, and I do that at The Bookshelf all the time. But when I get home, if I don't have the energy for that or the capacity for that because I've done it at the bookstore all day, I can also look to my mother in law and think a bag is fine. And so I would love for the heroines in my life and the women in my life to know you can fully have self-compassion, like you said, and fully embrace the parts that you're good at because then you show the rest of us there are multiple ways to do this. If you really want to, you can potato paint wrapping paper. But if you don't want to do that, that's okay. And so learning that we don't have to pass judgment on each other to for whether we're puff-sleeved hospitality or pinafore hospitality, allowing each of us to lean into the one that we are best at. Jenny, was there anything that you think that maybe we can learn from the book as we embark on the holiday season?
Jenny Williams [00:50:31] Well, I think what you said just kind of summarizes it perfectly. There's not one way to be a heroine. And I think remembering that, just looking about like not every period of your life has to be a period of growth and you don't always have to do the thing that seems hard and unattainable, especially during the holiday season. You can just lean into what you're good at and let other people around you shine. I think that's wonderful. The thing that makes you a heroine is your mindset. And when you fall down, you get back up. We get all these ideas in our head about what a heroine looks like and really it is just picking yourself up and moving on and refusing to be the victim. It's I'm going to be the heroine of the holiday season and not the victim. So what's that going to look like? And I think sometimes it just takes a little reflection.
Annie Jones [00:51:21] This has been such a delightful conversation. You can purchase Eat Like a Heroine through The Bookshelf. We do have copies in the store. We would love for you to support our store that way. Bookshelfthomasville.com. And then you can search for Eat Like a Heroine. Jenny, where can folks find you online?
Jenny Williams [00:51:37] Carrottoppapershop.com will take you to my Etsy page. Also the same on Instagram or my website that encompasses everything is artistjennywilliams.com.
Annie Jones [00:51:50] And Lorilee, where can folks find you online?
Lorilee Craker [00:51:53] So the best place to find me online is on Instagram at the Bookseller's Daughter.
Annie Jones [00:51:58] Wonderful. Thank you both so much for being here. Thanks for sharing so much about your heart behind the book and the book itself. I really do believe in this book and I really think it's just a lovely gift for the holiday season in particular. So thank you both for being here.
Lorilee Craker [00:52:12] Thank you for having us.
Jenny Williams [00:52:14] Thank you, Annie. We're so grateful.
Annie Jones [00:52:19] This week I'm reading Penitence by Kristin Koval
[00:52:19] Annie Jones: From the Front Porch is a weekly podcast production of The Bookshelf, an independent bookstore in Thomasville, Georgia. You can follow The Bookshelf’s daily happenings on Instagram at @bookshelftville, and all the books from today’s episode can be purchased online through our store website:
A full transcript of today’s episode can be found at:
Special thanks to Studio D Podcast Production for production of From the Front Porch and for our theme music, which sets the perfect warm and friendly tone for our Thursday conversations.
Our Executive Producers of today’s episode are…
Cammy Tidwell, Linda Lee Drozt, Martha, Stephanie Dean, Ashley Ferrell, Jennifer Bannerton, Gene Queens
Executive Producers (Read Their Own Names): Nicole Marsee, Wendi Jenkins, Susan Hulings
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