Episode 477 || Conquer a Classic Sneak Peek

This week on From the Front Porch, we have a special treat for you: a Conquer a Classic sneak peek! Conquer a Classic is the From the Front Porch Patreon’s year-long book club where Annie, Hunter, and our Patreon community tackle a classic novel together month by month. Our pick for 2024 is the American Western Lonesome Dove by Larry McMurtry. Today’s episode gives you a sneak peek of our Conquer a Classic bonus episodes on Patreon.

It’s not too late to join us! Here’s how to join our Conquer a Classic book club:

1. Buy your copy of Lonesome Dove by Larry McMurtry. When you order Lonesome Dove from us, your order includes an exclusive physical reading guide and Conquer a Classic sticker. You can purchase a digital download for the reading guide here.

2. Join our Patreon to unlock bonus episodes with Annie and Hunter.

From the Front Porch is a weekly podcast production of The Bookshelf, an independent bookstore in South Georgia. You can follow The Bookshelf’s daily happenings on Instagram, Tiktok, and Facebook, and all the books from today’s episode can be purchased online through our store website, www.bookshelfthomasville.com. 

A full transcript of today’s episode can be found below.

Special thanks to Dylan and his team at Studio D Podcast Production for sound and editing and for our theme music, which sets the perfect warm and friendly tone for our Thursday conversations. 

This week, Annie is reading The Ministry of Time by Kaliane Bradley.

If you liked what you heard in today’s episode, tell us by leaving a review on Apple Podcasts. You can also support us on Patreon, where you can access bonus content, monthly live Porch Visits with Annie, our monthly live Patreon Book Club with Bookshelf staffers, Conquer a Classic episodes with Hunter, and more. Just go to patreon.com/fromthefrontporch.

We’re so grateful for you, and we look forward to meeting back here next week.

Our Executive Producers are...Jennifer Bannerton, Stephanie Dean, Linda Lee Drozt, Ashley Ferrell, Susan Hulings, Wendi Jenkins, Martha, Nicole Marsee, Gene Queens, Cammy Tidwell, and Amanda Whigham.

Transcript:

[squeaky porch swing]  Welcome to From the Front Porch, a conversational podcast about books, small business, and life in the South. [music plays out] 

“‘I suppose you set up reading the Good Book all night.’‘Not me,” Augustus said. “I only read it in the morning and the evening, when I can be reminded of the glory of the Lord. The rest of the day I’m just reminded of what a miserable stink hole we stuck ourselves in. It’s hard to have fun in a place like this, but I do my best.’” Larry McMurtry, Lonesome Dove 

[as music fades out] I’m Annie Jones, owner of The Bookshelf, an independent bookstore in beautiful downtown Thomasville, Georgia, and this week, I’m talking about our Shelf Subscription program. Before we get started, a thank you to everyone who’s been leaving reviews for From the Front Porch. iTunes reviews and ratings are how new listeners can best find out about From the Front Porch and — as a result — find out about our indie bookstore, too. Here’s a recent review: 

Best way to start a Thursday 

I listen to many great book podcasts and From the Front porch is one of my favorites! Treat yourself and join Annie and her friends on their front porch and talk all things books! 

Thank you so much! If you haven’t left a review, all you have to do is open up the Podcast App on your phone, look for From the Front Porch, scroll down until you see ‘Write a Review’ and tell us what you think. Your reviews help us spread the word about not only our podcast, but about our small brick-and-mortar business, too. 

[00:01:49] Now back to the show. So every few episodes I remind listeners about our From the Front Porch Patreon program. For those who still might not know, Patreon exists as a way to support creators, writers, artists in their work, and it's used by a lot of podcasts as a way to generate income. Your monthly Patreon support means I, Annie B. Jones, no longer edit and produce From the Front Porch, which is the best gift you could have ever given me. Believe it or not, I did use to edit these too. And I'm so glad I don't have to do that anymore. I'm grateful every month when I sit down to record that I know someone else is going to do the hard part of editing and producing. Patreon enables From the Front Porch to not only exist as a marketing tool for our indie bookstore, but it also generates a small amount of profit for our store as well. As you probably already know, through Patreon, friend of the show, Hunter and I are conquering the classic American novel Lonesome Dove together with nearly 1000 listeners across the country (a stat I can never get over) we release recap episodes of our monthly readings. For $5 a month, patrons supporters can receive access to those monthly conversations, as well as our monthly porch visits, which are live Q&A sessions where I talk about everything from pop culture to nail polish, to what books you should take on your next vacation.  

[00:03:10] You know this. You've probably heard me say it many, many times on this years episodes. But as I began thinking, we've made it to May and I started thinking about how much joy Lonesome Dove is bringing me. And I've got to tell you, it's quickly become one of my very favorite Conquer a Classic experiences. And, yes, we talk about Hunter and I have debated whether it even constitutes as a work of classic literature at all. If you are not familiar, some of the other books that we've conquered through this Patreon program, we started with Anna Karenina, then we did Middlemarch, Count of Monte Cristo, Bleak House, and now it feels like we have rewarded ourselves with the 1985 American novel Lonesome Dove. But the discussions that I have with Hunter-- one of my favorite people to talk books with, and so having discussions with him every month about Lonesome Dove are often a highlight of my month. And then hearing from readers, whether it's on Instagram or in the Patreon comments, hearing from people and how they're experiencing this novel, especially people who are reading it alongside their family members. We have lots of folks who this was like their dad's favorite book, or this is their uncle's favorite book, and so they're reading it together with them. Which brings me a lot of joy. My own mom read Lonesome Dove, as you heard us talk about on a fairly recent episode of From the Front Porch. My mom read Lonesome Dove, and it was so fun to get to read a book with her, even though she sped right ahead and finished the whole thing.  

[00:04:42] So if you've been on the fence about joining us, you've heard us talk about it, but you haven't been sure if Patreon is for you, you haven't been sure if it's worth the money or the time commitment that it might require, I did want you to know it's not too late, especially for this book. If we were reading Middlemarch or Bleak House, I might deter you. But I am convinced, based on how many folks have either already finished Lonesome Dove or have no problem catching up every month, that you could start now and still be on track to either finish with us this fall. We'll finish in, I believe, October. So you could finish with us in October or you could read it this summer. That's another reason I kind of wanted to give you a sneak peek at what we've been talking about over there, because I could see Lonesome Dove being a really fun summer project for a reader. So it's part of the reason it occurred to me it might be fun for you to listen in and to see what these types of conversations are like, what Hunter and I discuss. We have a lot of fun, and I love the community that we've built on Patreon, and the feedback we're getting and the conversations that we're having there. So I wanted you to get a chance to listen in.  

[00:05:51] So today's podcast episode features our discussion of the first seven chapters of Lonesome Dove. I hesitate to say there are no spoilers, but also it's just setting up the book Lonesome Dove. And so I think you should be fine. If you've never read it or if you read it years and years ago and you don't want to be spoiled, this could, I think, set the stage for you for what this year's Conquer a Classic has been like. And, again, I just don't think it's too late to join us. If this was a different year, a different book, I might feel differently. But because this is Lonesome Dove, I think you could embark on your own Conquer a Classic journey for the summer. Or you might discover that it would just be fun to listen to me and Hunter talk about books. I certainly think that's fun. So if you like what you hear today, you can consider joining us on Patreon at the $5 month level. You can visit Patreon.com/fromthefrontporch to join us there, or there's a link in the show notes as well. And then we have copies of Lonesome Dove available on the store website. If you purchase a book from us, you will get a printed reading guide-- by reading guide I just mean a reading schedule. And then if you join us on Patreon, you get the reading schedule for free. If you already have a copy of Lonesome Dove sitting on your shelf and you don't really need to buy a new one, that's totally fine. Or if you want to listen in audiobook format, you can either join us on Patreon and get the reading schedule for free, or there is a download of the PDF of the reading schedule available through the store website. I think it's a $5 PDF download.  

[00:07:24] So okay, without further ado, here is our conversation on the first seven chapters of Lonesome Dove. Welcome to this bonus episode of From the Front Porch. We are talking about Lonesome Dove in our Conquer a Classic series. I am joined today by my friend, co-host, fellow reader in this life, Hunter McLendon. Hi, Hunter.  

Hunter Mclendon [00:07:51] Hello.  

Annie Jones [00:07:52] It's been a minute since we've recorded one of these. And I've also recorded five episodes today, so I feel a little broken in spirit, but it's fine.  

Hunter Mclendon [00:08:00] Yeah. If I were you, I'd be burnt out, crying, laying on the floor, eating chocolate.  

Annie Jones [00:08:05] I told Olivia, I said the last podcast episode of the day is with Hunter, so he'll bring me energy.  

Hunter Mclendon [00:08:13] I'm like an energy drink.  

Annie Jones [00:08:15] That's right. So welcome, everybody. If this is your-- which there are so many new Patreon supporters listening to this, and we just want to say welcome. We are organized chaos, conquering these classics year after year. And we are so glad that you are here. There are over 1000 people-- I think I just checked before we started recording. There's 1100 people on Patreon.  

Hunter Mclendon [00:08:39] That's wild.  

Annie Jones [00:08:39] Isn't that bonkers? Also, I guess this is what happens when you conquer an American classic.  

Hunter Mclendon [00:08:44] You know what, people do love-- well, plus, it's like, what, 1985? So everyone's like, oh, I can do this.  

Annie Jones [00:08:49] It feels more doable. So let me get some business out of the way, which is feel free to continue spreading the word about our conquered classic episodes and recaps if you are new to this. Hunter and I are reading along with you. The reading guide is available on Patreon. We take all year. We take about 10 months to read this book together. We are going to talk about the fact that this is a book that you might want to speed through, and that's okay. There are no rules here. But Hunter and I are abiding by the premise, which is we're going to take all year to read Lonesome Dove, and we would love for you to read along with us. You can use the hashtag Conquer a Classic, tag Shelf by Shelf, tag Annie B Jones05, tag us on Instagram if you want us to share your post about your reading experiences. And then if you have already read Lonesome Dove, we would love for you to listen to our episodes, to add your various insights in the comments, or you might be interested in one of our previous titles. Because if you're new here, Conquer a Classic's been around for a hot minute. We have done-! Oh my gosh, is this our fifth?  

Hunter Mclendon [00:09:53] Yeah.  

Annie Jones [00:09:54] Wow! I'm so proud of us.  

Hunter Mclendon [00:09:56] I know.  

[00:09:57] We've read so many pages. We should count how many pages we've read together. So in 2020, we kicked off this project with Anna Karenina. Which I saw Hunter on Instagram talking about people's white whales of a book. And that was my personal white whale. And so we read Anna Karenina during the pandemic. Then 2021 we did Middlemarch; 2022 which I swear feels like last year, was The Count of Monte Cristo; 2023 was Charles Dickens' Bleak House; and now we are reading Lonesome Dove. So you can listen to back episodes where we recap each of those books if you are interested. Somebody did tag us the other day because they're reading Anna Karenina and they're listening to our episodes. And I feel like, oh my gosh, baby Annie and Hunter.  

Hunter Mclendon [00:10:40] Well, it's actually funny. I think Tyler, my husband, who is joining a log in the--  

Annie Jones [00:10:45] He's in Patreon. I saw him comment the other day and I was like, "Hi Tyler."  

Hunter Mclendon [00:10:47] Listen, he's so excited about this. He was like, I'm joining. Actually, he read aloud some of the chapters to me of Lonesome Dove on the couch. Yeah, it's very sweet. He's a really good reader too, because he was a teacher.  

Annie Jones [00:11:02] Yes, I bet he is good at that.  

Hunter Mclendon [00:11:03] Yeah. But I did tell him, I was like, "You have to go back and listen to some of the others." And he was like, "I think I am. I think I am." I think at least for me, my favorites were Anna Karenina and Middlemarch. So I hope he goes back and does those.  

Annie Jones [00:11:15] I hope that this will be an enjoyable experience for us both. If you are a repeat listener from our Bleak House days-- look, I'm still so glad we did that together. I never would have done that without you and without the accountability of this group. But I would be lying if I was like, oh, that was easy and so fun. It was not. 

Hunter Mclendon [00:11:37] You know how they say that junior year is supposed to be like the hardest year for high school?  

Annie Jones [00:11:40] Yes, it was for me.  

Hunter Mclendon [00:11:41] Okay. I feel like Bleak House was like our junior year where we're just--  

Annie Jones [00:11:46] Yes! And now we're seniors and having the best time.  

Hunter Mclendon [00:11:49] Yeah. Truly.  

Annie Jones [00:11:52] So we picked Lonesome Dove. We did not leave this up to a vote, did we? We just picked this.  

Hunter Mclendon [00:11:58] Yeah. I think we were, like, this is what we're doing.  

Annie Jones [00:12:01] So I'm curious, how did we pick this? We picked this when you and Tyler came over for Count of Monte Cristo to watch.  

Hunter Mclendon [00:12:09] Yes. 

Annie Jones [00:12:10] Right?  

Hunter Mclendon [00:12:12] Yeah, it is. No, sorry, I was laughing because I'm still so put out by that movie.  

Annie Jones [00:12:17] That's okay. This is taking leaps and bounds ahead, but I had somebody message me today, and she said, "Oh my gosh, Annie, you're in for such a treat. Watch the Lonesome Dove mini series. It is a work of classic American cinema." And so I thought, oh, great. And I do like to treat ourselves when we're finished with these things. I have not attempted the Bleak House mini series, though I will give it a go. But Count of Monte Cristo was way better when I watched it literally my junior year of high school than it was when we watched together as adults.  

Hunter Mclendon [00:12:50]  Apparently there are people who love that movie.  

Annie Jones [00:12:52] Yes, there are. [Crosstalk].  

Hunter Mclendon [00:12:53] I respect, but also the production value...  

Annie Jones [00:12:57] It's so bad.  

Hunter Mclendon [00:12:58] It is. It's fine.  

Annie Jones [00:12:59] It's so hard to watch it through a modern lens. Okay. So did you have any personal history with Larry McMurtry or Westerns? I know you've been doing your National Book Awards project, so I would assume you have encountered the Western genre by now.  

Hunter Mclendon [00:13:12] Yeah, I've read some Westerns, and it's funny because I actually really enjoy the genre more than I thought I would. But I also, I think, something I discovered while doing the project, at least for the 50s and 60s so far, was that any genre is great if it's handled with care and really well written and well crafted. I don't think I'd like war novels. Love them. I love a good Western. I love a good like science book. My go to is like a sad girl who possibly wants to kill her husband, but anything will do.  

Annie Jones [00:13:48] Well, it does go to show. The consensus I saw on Patreon was that people are having a good time with this and that. The overall consensus, there are a few complaints here or there. But the consensus thus far is, oh, I'm surprised by how much I like this. And I think it does go to show that when somebody is a really talented and gifted writer, you will follow them wherever they take you- even if it's outside your typical genre.  

Hunter Mclendon [00:14:16] Yeah, that's the thing too. Listen, after last year I started this and I thought, truly, thank the Lord that this is [inaudible] reading because I could not handle another year of trucking along.  

Annie Jones [00:14:31] I couldn't either. I think the phrase I used for The Bookshelf staff this week was reading Bleak House felt like reading on the collegiate level without the guidance of a collegiate professor, and we have some English majors in the audience here (shout out to Kristen, resident English major) and I'm so grateful for their voices. But also we are not in school, we have full time jobs. You have a full time job outside of books. We have side gigs that have to do with books and writing. And so to add this on top of this, which you are also just doing this out of pure kindness of your heart. You're not even at The Bookshelf. Thank you so much for doing this with me. I think people think, oh, yes, Hunter works The Bookshelf. No, you guys, he's just really nice.  

Hunter Mclendon [00:15:17] To be clear, if anyone has known me for any time at all, they'll know that I'm obsessed with you and that I just want to be your best friend. And so this is just me forever inching my way in. But, no, it's funny because I'm a very passionate supporter of The Bookshelf, but I do have to always clarify to people I'm not a staff or I don't have a direct affiliation. I'm just a big fan.  

Annie Jones [00:15:40] Hashtag tweets are my own.  

Hunter Mclendon [00:15:42] Yeah, truly. Because I'll be with other people when they're shopping at other stores near enough, and I'm like, oh no, I can't buy anything because I buy at The Bookshelf and you are enough.  

Annie Jones [00:15:57] Hunter is loyal to the nth degree. So, yeah, I will say I was trying to wrack my brain on if I had read a western before, and I'm not sure that I have. I bought the book Anna North, but I still haven't read it. I wanted to read How Much of These Hills are Gold, and I still think that might be one of my rewards for reading this book. I don't know that I've ever picked one up. What I will say is thus far in this reading experience, which it's still early days, I am very much reminded of Steinbeck and really reminded of our reading together of East of Eden. That is the vibe I am getting. And I love East of Eden.  

Hunter Mclendon [00:16:54] That's actually one of the things I thought of too. Also, did you not read True Grit?  

Annie Jones [00:16:59] Yes, I did! I did read True Grit. Okay, there we go. Thanks, Hunter. I appreciate that. I did read True Grit. I also want to just give a shout out to my mom who is reading this along with us.  

Hunter Mclendon [00:17:12] Okay.  

Annie Jones [00:17:12] Which is very fun. She grew up watching Westerns with my granddad- her dad. And so she really wanted to read this. It has been hysterical. As you know, my mom is a PG reader. She's very careful about what she reads, and she has been hilarious about the poking and the carrots. She thinks it is hilarious to remind me of these parts of the book. And so that has been just an unexpected delight. And part of what I think has really struck a lot of readers on Patreon and then even on The Bookshelf staff. So Keila is reading along with us. Erin and her husband are reading this together, which I think is charming and fun. So we've got a lot of in-house support for this one. Many people did not join us for Bleak House. I don't know if you're aware, but lots of people gave up or didn't try that book at all. But a lot of The Bookshelf staff is doing this, and I think it's because it is accessible and people are finding it really funny. That's the overall sense. Like my mom thinks it's very funny. Keila came into my office and was talking about, oh my gosh, nobody talked about how funny this was. And I would agree that thus far I'm relieved. Dickens is humorous. Dickens has funny things to say. But you really have to read for them. Like, you really have to read carefully. And this is just a much less arduous reading experience for me personally.  

Hunter Mclendon [00:18:34] I actually feel like Westerns and Southern lit have a lot in common in the musicality of language and the delivery of a punchline.  

Annie Jones [00:18:44] Yes, we're better at it.  

Hunter Mclendon [00:18:49] And I find that Larry McMurtry actually has such a similar rhythm to how he delivers the language. There's so many moments that I did laugh at, and it's because he knows where to place that emphasis to kind of like-- it's very smart.  

Annie Jones [00:19:04] And it's familiar to Southern storytelling. I think you're absolutely right. Okay. So why did we pick this book? I think we both picked it because of severe Bleak House burnout. I think we'd be lying if we didn't acknowledge that somewhere. So we had Bleak House burnout. This is our first American classic. It's our first modern classic. I mean, it was published in '85, won the Pulitzer in 1986-- my birth year, so that's kind of fun. It's set in the late 1800s, but the language feels a lot easier, I think. Anna Karenina, Count of Monte Cristo, those were translations. Middlemarch and Bleak House were British. So this is our first foray into American Lit here. And I'm not going to lie, I really like it, which is my, I guess, dumb American speaking.  

Hunter Mclendon [00:19:55] I talked about this at several points in the past two years. So I took about two months off of my National Book Award reading project at the end of last year, and I'm really glad I did, because I was actually getting very burnt out on American Lit. The style was very American and ideas were American. That's truly all I was reading for the NBA. But taking those few months off, I think now I have like all of this kind of like backlog of information and ideas and everything. But it feels like I feel refreshed. And so it's very exciting to be able to know all these reference points and see possible inspirations from older writers and stuff and be like, oh, I can make that connection, but without to be like, okay, enough [crosstalk].  

Annie Jones [00:20:47] Also important to note-- and I saw a couple of commenters I think weigh in on this a bit-- but Larry McMurtry published Lonesome Dove and then came out with two other books in the series that really were prequels. So this is the first book, but if you read them chronologically, this is the third book. And so one commenter-- I don't think I copied and pasted her comment here, but one commenter said, "I felt like when I opened the book, I was immediately just plopped down, and I wonder if it's because it's part of a series." And I did want to go ahead and address that, because she was wondering if just feeling like plopped down in the middle of the story was just Larry McMurtry style, or if it was because, oh, we're reading the third in the trilogy. But the reality is this book was written and the others were not yet written. And I agree with her analysis that you do start this book and you kind of feel like you're in the middle of something. And I think that's intentional and purposeful. We are catching these people in mid or late life. They have already been Texas Rangers. They are in their second careers. We're already being kind of flung, almost fly on the wall, to the happenings here. And I think that's intentional and purposeful and I really liked it. Though I would agree, it took me a minute to realize, wait a minute, you do get a sense that you're supposed to know who these people are already, but you don't. You're not supposed to. So if you read this and were a little lost, I think that's okay and normal. Okay. Before we go into some people's maybe more specific questions and about the first seven chapters, which is what we're going to talk about today, I do always when we kick off a Conquer a Classic program, I want to revisit how we both read classics. Because I think you and I read very big picture and some of our listeners read really detailed. And so that's something that I think we want to talk about a little bit. So how do you approach reading a classic like this? Do you go in blind, do you research all the stuff? And then I wanted to talk a little bit because we did get several commenters who were like, oh no, I read the preface and I got spoiled. And this is why I don't read prefaces ever. Do you read the preface?  

Hunter Mclendon [00:23:00] No. I do at the end.  

Annie Jones [00:23:02] I read at the end. Yeah.  

Hunter Mclendon [00:23:05] I do anything I can to avoid-- it's so funny because I love to reread books whenever I know everything that happens. But I don't like the first time around. The first time around is to experience everything as I can without knowing anything, but so I don't read the backs of books. You know this, I literally pick up books and hope for the best.  

Annie Jones [00:23:27] Which I love this about you. That might be new information for some people, but you don't read the backs of books. And that has been inspirational to me. You just go in.  

Hunter Mclendon [00:23:33] Yeah. Listen, it drives some people crazy. My friend Bernie is always like, so there's this book I wanted to read. And I'm like, okay. And he's like, well, it's about-- I'm like, I don't even need to know. I think some people are so unnerved by it. It's funny because don't know anything about the book before I go into it. Talking about reading classics, I don't even do a lot of research before I read a book. But when I was writing these newsletters for the National Book Award winning project covering the books in the 50s and the 60s, after I read certain books, I would do a lot of research about certain things. A lot of books in the 50s wrote about suburbia. And so I researched a lot about suburbia and how it's kind of cultivated in the 50s and stuff like that. But I don't like to do a lot of research. I don't want it to feel like homework when I'm going in; I want it to feel like enjoyment. And I think if I start doing a lot of homework about it, I'll start to get the ick. 

Annie Jones [00:24:32] Well, you know me, I love homework. I love a grade. However, I think going back to I had a professor in college in great books who we were reading all these great works of Western "Western Canon" whatever. And he specifically told us don't read prefaces, don't just don't read introductions, just read the work. Because you are new to the work and I want you to just read it, and I don't want you to read analysis about it yet. I want to know what you think. Which I really appreciate it because it helped me figure out what do I think about John Locke or what do I think about these characters or these people or these authors? And so when I opened Lonesome Dove, I skipped the preface. And Meghan, a Patreon supporter said, "I'm loving this read so far. I'm wondering about the preface at the beginning that McMurtry wrote in 2010. I read it, then immediately wish I hadn't because I feel like it contains spoilers. Did you read it? Do you typically read prefaces? And why do they put them at the beginning of books if they contain important plot spoilers?" And I thought about this, and I think so often prefaces are included in a reprinting of a work. And I kind of think a publisher's assumption-- and I'm not saying it's correct, but I think the assumption is you're already familiar with the story. And so reading somebody's preface, if it's the author's preface or an introduction written by, I think, like, Anna Quindlen wrote the introductions to the Betsy-Tacy and Tib books, which I think is charming. And so reading them is supposed to enhance the work. But if you've never read the work before, I kind of advocate going in and not reading them. And it's okay. Meghan, it's okay that you did. Don't beat yourself up. It's totally fine. But in the future, I do think almost utilize the preface as an afterword and read it after the book, is kind of how I would treat it.  

Hunter Mclendon [00:26:22] No, yeah. It is funny because like I said, I reread like 11 books at the end of last year and I was like, I love knowing what's to come so I can kind of see how a book is functioning. I always think about back in 2010, I was reading The Girl Who Played with Fire from that millennium trilogy; and I remember that I read 200 pages and I flipped to the back and the back of the book described everything that happened in the first 200 pages. And I was like, well, I'm really glad I didn't read this because I'd have been so put out if I'd been waiting in 200 pages, like, all this was already revealed to me.  

Annie Jones [00:27:09] Yes. Pre meeting you, I did read backs of books. I do still sometimes but I often think about you and I'm often like, Annie, just go in and enjoy it. You have definitely influenced my reading life in that way. But what I like to do, and it sounds like you did this with National Book Award reading, is I do like to do some research at the end. Maybe especially like when we finished Bleak House, I really did want to know why did he do this? Like, how did critics receive it? But I had to be so careful because you and I are trying to guide the conversation that our fellow readers are experiencing. But I do not want to be spoiled. And so you have to be so careful with SparkNotes, with Wikipedia. I wanted to do some research today on the Texas Rangers, and I was being so careful because I was, like, I don't want to know anything about this book that has existed since the 80s and I'm sure spoilers abound. And, of course, people always joke like there's no such thing as spoilers when a book has been out since the 80s, 90s, whatever. And I agree with that. You can't roll your eyes at folks, but we here are trying to read one part at a time. And so I want to be so careful to not spoil anything and to not have anything spoiled for myself. So I love a book that leads me to future research, but I don't do a ton of pre research. And that is definitely partly Hunter's doing. It's partly one of my professors’ doing from college. And it's just kind of how I read now. Okay. We read chapters one through seven to discuss today. What are your initial thoughts? How do we compare this to Bleak House? I will tell you that one fellow reader on Patreon already commented she has literary whiplash, and I just wonder if you feel the same.  

Hunter Mclendon [00:28:56] It is a major shift in tone, style, everything. My initial thoughts are pigs and what horrors. I do have to say, this will probably be the thing I latch on to throughout the next year so buckle up. But, Lorena, i-- it Lorena?  

Annie Jones [00:29:20] I already I looked up Lorena. I looked up how to pronounce it. I think it's Lorena. And I immediately was like, well, Hunter's sold. Guys, he loves a troubled lady protagonist.  

Hunter Mclendon [00:29:35] Listen, I was reading it and I was like, oh, this is for me. And it's true. I thought, you know what, he's watching over me. Like, it's really felt like that. I was like, this is what I needed to survive this year.  

Annie Jones [00:29:48] Definitely. You suffered through Bleak House. You suffered through puritanical Esther, and now you're being given a lady of the night.  

Hunter Mclendon [00:29:55] Truly. Okay, for anyone who did not have to suffer through Esther from Bleak House or who did not listen to Esther, she was just a goody two shoes that I spent the entire year thinking was going to be a murderous.  

Annie Jones [00:30:12] Spoiler for Bleak House, she's not.  

Hunter Mclendon [00:30:14] Yeah, she's just Pollyanna beginning to end.  

Annie Jones [00:30:18] Which was a little dull.  

Hunter Mclendon [00:30:19] It was dull. And Pulitzer Prize winner, Michal Shavit, even agree that she's dull and awful. But any time that a woman murders people or if she is a horror or if she's anything of the above, I am like, yes, I support you. What is that thing about Lady Gaga says where she's like, "I don't support murder, but I do believe in the power of women stories or whatever." And I'm like, yes, me too.  

Annie Jones [00:30:49] I immediately thought of you. I think her story is introduced in chapter three. And I thought, oh my gosh, like, this is the character for Hunter because I think you and I both attached to different characters. And perhaps it will be no surprise to anyone, but I weirdly will be interested to see the trajectory that Gus takes. And some of the commenters said none of these characters yet are particularly likable. I would like to state that I don't ever need my characters to be likable. And so I just felt like these older cowboys, I don't know, reminded me of, like, Tommy Lee Jones. I just was like, okay, I like these crotchety old men trying to make their way in retirement.  

Hunter Mclendon [00:31:38] I think Tommy Lee Jones is in the cast.  

Annie Jones [00:31:42] Oh, my gosh, is he really? Y'all, I love Tommy Lee Jones. I really do. Let me be clear. I don't know anything about him as a person. Please do not ruin him for me. I don't need it. But I really love him in The Fugitive. And I think he's delightful. Please don't ruin him for me. Okay, that would be very exciting. I have not looked anything up about the movie. I have wanted so badly to avoid spoilers. I did have literary whiplash- as one commenter described. But I started reading this. My mom has started reading it before me and she already-- y'all, she is powering through. She's worried she won't finish in a year, so she's ignoring the reading guide completely, which is fine. Do whatever you want. So she is just reading at her own pace, but she was having such a good time that I think one part of my brain was like, oh, good. And then part of me was like, oh no, what if I don't have a good time? But, no, I'm having a great time. There's just no denying it's an easier read than Bleak House for me thus far. We'll talk a little bit about all of the characters, but I personally did not find it too confusing.  I'm not too worried about that just yet. We'll talk about keeping track of characters and things like that to help with your reading, but I just kind of got swept up in it. 

And I will say, all teasing aside to Bleak House and to Charles Dickens, one of the things you and I did really like about Bleak House initially was you immediately knew where you were. Dickens really set up with descriptions of fog, with descriptions of London. I knew exactly where I was, and I immediately felt like I was in a Texas summer, which is hard to read in January. I do not like reading summer books in the winter. I like reading winter books in the winter. So I did have to kind of work on that for myself, but I immediately felt the Texas heat, the humidity. And so kudos to McMurtry because in that way he felt like an American Dickens where I was like, oh, yes, I know immediately where I am. He has set this up with the pigs and the animals and the insects and the dirt and the sweat. I just felt it was all very visceral and very realistic to me. Okay. One question I have for you that I do think is going to come up as we read this throughout the year, is speaking of my mom, I can immediately tell that this is an easier book and it will lend itself to faster reading. So is there a benefit in reading this more fast paced classic slowly? How will you handle reading it this year? Are you going to continue to just abide by the guide? Will you read ahead? How will you handle your reading of it?  

Hunter Mclendon [00:34:31] Well, because that's the thing, right? I feel like every book we've read before has mostly been published. It's been serialized, right? So it's been easier for us to kind of feel these natural stops. So I do think that'll be an interesting thing to navigate. But I am also somebody who is lazy, and I don't really foresee myself reading more than I have to with my current busy schedule. And that's the thing too, as far as just convenience-wise, I'm like, oh, yeah. That's what I've always loved about conquering these classics, is that it always feels so doable partly because of how we do it. But also I think that I kind of like being forced to sit with what's happening and to really contemplate it. And I don't know, I love to sit with things and brainstorm like, oh, I wonder what's going to come next.  

Annie Jones [00:35:32] And we've talked about that. I think I've mentioned that for me reading slowly feels almost like a spiritual practice. And sometimes it's a spiritual practice I really enjoy. And sometimes it's one I hate. As spiritual practices go, you either love them or you hate them depending on your life's rhythm. I'm naturally a fast reader, so forcing myself to read at a slower pace I think is actually really good for me. And I will say something that I did this time that I hope I continue to do throughout this year, is one of my struggles with both Bleak House and Count of Monte Cristo, was that I really wound up having to binge the chapters. It would occur to me on Monday that we were recording on Wednesday, and so I would have to read over the course of two days. And what I did this time with Lonesome Dove was last week I started reading a chapter before bed every night, and so I gave myself seven days to read the seven chapters. And I loved reading that way, and felt like I really became more enmeshed in the story that way. And so I don't think there's anything wrong with binging a book. My mom knows herself very well. If she wants to continue to read ahead so that she ensures she conquers this classic, I'm cheering her on and I'm rooting for her. For me, I will not be able to read ahead just because then I would probably accidentally spoil it for the rest of you. I think you and I kind of are the pace setters like in horse racing or something like that. We really set the tone. So I don't want to skip ahead because I'm afraid I would mess up and talk about something that people hadn't read yet. So we are going to be forced to read slowly. But I was nervous about that because a lot of people said, oh, you won't be able to, it's so good, you're going to fly through it. And I respect that. And if that's how you want to read this, go for it. But I kind of like, for me and my reading life, forcing myself to sit with something, like you said, to kind of sit in it, to speculate a little bit, to wonder what's going to happen. To wonder where McMurtry is taking us instead of just flying through it. So as for me and my house, we will be reading slowly. But it's okay if you don't.  

Hunter Mclendon [00:37:36] Okay. Hear me out, I kind of imagine that when we read these books like this, that I am Annie Wilkes and whoever we're reading, whatever his name is, in misery where he's, like, tied to the bed, and I'm like, finish your next chapters. I'm waiting. And so that's kind of what goes in my head. That's kind of how I hype myself up. I'm like, I'll just wait for him to finish typing them up and then I can read them. So if feeling like a maniac is a way to encourage you, then that's the way to do it.  

Annie Jones [00:38:14] There's a sense of anticipation, like excited anticipation, wondering what are we going to read next month? Okay. So this book opens in Texas. Well, we don't really know anything, but we learn that Gus or Augustus is really the old cowboy. He's a former Texas Ranger, and now he lives in Lonesome Dove, Texas, with a slew of people, including call, who I consider his kind of right hand man. They are partners. They were rangers together, and now they run this ranch and they run cattle-- I don't pretend to know a ton about Western life in the 1870s, but they run cattle and get cattle back and forth from Mexico. They live on the ranch with Pea Eye, Deets, Newt and Bolivar. Bolivar was the easiest one for me to remember. He's the cook. And then Newt, I remembered because he's the little guy. He's the young wannabe cowboy who they kind of-- I think we're going to get more of Newt, it would be my suspicion. Because he's introduced and then later on in our chapters that we read, we kind of see that he has been raised by Call and Gus, and we kind of are left to wonder why that is. Then in chapter three, we meet Lorena, who we've already talked about. She's a sex worker in Texas. And that's where I think my mom and I learned all about poking and people's carrots, and it was delightful and hilarious and fun. Then we meet Dish, who desperately is in love with Lorena and is trying to figure out how to impress her, and how to win her over. We get some really interesting interactions at-- I don't know, are we just allowed to say whorehouse? What's the language we're using here?  

Hunter Mclendon [00:40:14] If Dolly Parton uses it, I think we can use it.  

Annie Jones [00:40:18] Little whorehouse in Texas.  

Hunter Mclendon [00:40:21] It is.  

Annie Jones [00:40:23] It is. This little warehouse in Texas where Dish just wants Lorena to run away with him. He seems to one of the handsome cowboys, the younger generation, and Gus kind of rolls his eyes at him. And then Jake Woodrow appears on the scene as a guy who has been running cattle up north, in Montana, but, whoops, turns out he shot a man in Arkansas. Which I got a kick out of the murdering, but also just the fact that Gus is, like, "This man can't shoot a thing, but he manages to hit one man." There was kind of jokes made that he's a terrible shot, but somehow has murdered, I believe, a dentist in Arkansas. Which is just so funny, I don't know. That was a very funny detail to me. So he comes back home, and this is all leading up-- all of these chapters, I think, are kind of as one might expect a little bit exposition. It's almost like the pilot episode to me of a TV show where we're getting introduced to all the characters. And I think what's going to happen is we're going to do a cattle run-- if I had to guess-- up to Montana. Convinced to do so by Jake Woodrow. Where we might meet-- this is the only character I wrote down that we haven't really met her yet, but Clara is somebody who Gus was in love with at a time. He's his unrequited love and she has gotten married and lives somewhere, I think, in Montana. And maybe we're going to get to meet her, I don't know. So that is like the real quick CliffsNotes version of what happened here. Did I cover it?  

Hunter Mclendon [00:42:06] Yeah. You are so good at this.  

Annie Jones [00:42:09] Well, I feel like people are listening and probably like, "Annie, you just flew through that. We want to talk about it in detail." But I just wanted to give a quick overview of, like, those are the characters that we were introduced to and that's what happened.  

Hunter Mclendon [00:42:22] Listen, all I can do is ramble. It'd be like, oh, wait, and then this... I'm endlessly impressed by you for many reasons, but that's one of those.  

Annie Jones [00:42:29] Well, you're so kind. So that's the CliffsNotes version. One of the questions I had for you, and I think this is a question that comes up from Jillian [sp]. Jillian said, "In reflecting on chapters one through seven, I think it's interesting that although the writing is very character heavy, I have not found any of the characters to be particularly likable yet. I'm interested to see what you and Hunter think of the characters and which of them, if any, emerges as the hero." First of all, I would like to know, do you agree with Jillian? Do you find these characters unlikable?  

Hunter Mclendon [00:42:59] Oh, well, I'm not the right person to ask. I love Lorena. I like her a lot. Is it Newt that thinks that Jake Woodrow is his father?  

Annie Jones [00:43:18] Yes.  

Hunter Mclendon [00:43:20] That was what he thought.  

Annie Jones [00:43:21] Yes, that's what he thought.  

Hunter Mclendon [00:43:23] But then somebody else says that he... 

Annie Jones [00:43:25] That's the guy who then makes a comment and you almost wonder, is it Call or Augustus maybe somehow the dad.  

Hunter Mclendon [00:43:33] Okay, that's what I thought. Okay. I'm very charmed by Newt. Mostly because I don't think he's going to be-- what's the word that we use? A dandy?  

Annie Jones [00:43:47] He's a dandy.  

Hunter Mclendon [00:43:48] Yeah. I'm trying to think. It's so hard because in gay world if you call someone a twink, then you're a bully. I'm just kidding. No, that's not a slur. I promise guys, don't worry.  

Annie Jones [00:43:59] Please don't cancel us on episode one of this.  

Hunter Mclendon [00:44:02] Yeah, I can say that. [Inaudible]. I'm so over these soft-- there's like a word now for like the boys who are just really soft on the internet and sweet.  

Annie Jones [00:44:17] I see. And that's his vibe for sure.  

Hunter Mclendon [00:44:21] But I also think he can wield a gun maybe.  

Annie Jones [00:44:23] Yes. Well, he's a soft cowboy, which means he's not really-- I think he's capable and is going to learn the ropes literally from Gus and Call.  

Hunter Mclendon [00:44:37] The best way I can describe it is that he seems like someone who wants to be a man really bad and so somehow he'll slap people out and everything, but then he'll be, like, really sweet and cozy to you if you guys are alone. And I love that in a man. I am like, please, fight people for me and then come and be like, oh, here's flower.  

Annie Jones [00:44:56] Like a real teddy bear. He's a real teddy bear.  

Hunter Mclendon [00:44:58] Yes. That's the vibe I get. So I like that he's not like Levon from Anna Karenina.  

Annie Jones [00:45:04] Oh, yes. Who I loved.  

Hunter Mclendon [00:45:06] Who you loved. Annie always loves these people who are just such wimps [inaudible]. Which is so funny because I'm always so attracted to these terrible people.  

Annie Jones [00:45:20] Well, that's what I thought was funny about Jillian's question. So with all the kindness in the world to Jillian, I did not read this and find anybody to be unlikable. I'm charmed by them all. Now they're of a time. Yes, they are of a culture. But it is also, I think, partly the enigma to me because it is so otherworldly to me. This is not a world that I grew up in. This is not just Southern culture. This is Texas culture, which I would argue is a different thing. There's overlap, but it is different. And this is John Wayne territory. And so I think that's why I did not expect to like Augustus, who is the chattier. If we're taking Gus and Call, who I would guess those are our two main characters. Maybe I'm wrong about that, but it seems like they might be. And Gus is the chattier of the two. He's a little bit obnoxious in that he loves to tell a story. You don't often see him doing much work. He says that his work has to do with thinking. He's maybe the big picture dreamer. And maybe, yeah, he is a little obnoxious, but I did not find him so. We get a lot of older gentleman customers at The Bookshelf, who I am very charmed by. They're men who call you sweetie, and maybe I should be offended, but I'm not at all like. And don't get me wrong, there is a type of man who will call me sweetie, and I do not appreciate it, and I do not enjoy it. But a customer of a certain age, grandfatherly, I really give them a lot of grace. And so Gus and Call fall in that category for me. And then Call feels like you're more stereotypical cowboy, like the silent type. Do you know what I mean? Like a strong, silent--And I also like a strong, silent type. And so I feel like I'm going to be paying attention to those two characters. Jordan laughs at me. And I think you and I have talked about this before, but I love heterosexual male friendships. I also like homosexual male friendships. But there is something about male bonding to me that I find really-- I think about the Throwback Special. I don't remember if you read that book.  

Hunter Mclendon [00:47:38] I love that book. Yeah.  

Annie Jones [00:47:39] Yes. That was a book about a group of guys who loved football. I freaking loved that book. I like watching men in relationship with one another. And there were certainly some displays here of what we, in our 2024 lens, might call toxic masculinity. But I just found it to be like, ,these men are just hanging out on their ranch. And turns out I could read about that all day long.  

Hunter Mclendon [00:48:07] Sorry, was it Shotgun love song? I didn't read that one, but I bought it because...  

Annie Jones [00:48:10] Yes, it was vaguely. It was male. It was definitely male friendship. It was not sports related, but it is very...  

Hunter Mclendon [00:48:16] Male friendship. Yeah. It's funny because I realized you and I probably have that same thing. I think it's maybe because there's just not a lot of books about male friendship.  

Annie Jones [00:48:26] There aren't. Well, this is a side note. I won't go on a tangent. But my brother and Jordan were talking about Chet had read a couple of articles about male loneliness and how it's kind of an epidemic that, like, men don't have friends. And I looked at the men in my life who I respect and love, Jordan, Chet, my dad, they all have friendships. My dad has his best friend from childhood that he still keeps in touch with. They text each other pictures of the snow on the golf course. So I have a real soft spot in my heart for male relationships. And I said heterosexual, it could be homosexual, I don't really care. But it's that male bonding. I don't know.  

Hunter Mclendon [00:49:10] But I do think there is something very particular about heterosexual male friendship that is so rare. Because I do think that when you when we look at like the queer found family aspect, that's a different vibe than the way that straight men... I was rewatching Unbreakable Kimmy Schmidt the other day, and Titus's boyfriend at one point he's like that really masculine who works in the construction or something.  

Annie Jones [00:49:43] Yes, I remember that.  

Hunter Mclendon [00:49:44] Yeah. And at one point he's like sitting with his friends/ coworkers and they're all just like sup, sup, sup up and they don't talk. And it's like it's so hard to find these like-- I don't know, there's something so mysterious and...  

Annie Jones [00:49:59] We don't see it portrayed.  

Hunter Mclendon [00:50:00] Yeah.  

[00:50:02] When Jordan has his college friends over or when-- I think I have a picture on my phone of Jordan and our friend, Will, sitting with their arms around each other. And they really love each other. My little stone heart just softens when I see something like that. And I think this book is going to give me some of that, which I'm really excited for. What do you think about Jake Woodrow, the dentist murderer?  

Hunter Mclendon [00:50:34]  I think you understand how Newt views him.  

Annie Jones [00:50:39] Yes.  

Hunter Mclendon [00:50:41] Because Newt's mom, she's like-- 

Annie Jones [00:50:47] She's dead now. Yes, but she was also a service worker.  

Hunter Mclendon [00:50:51] Yeah. Well, I have got to learn from you. You are so good at this.  

Annie Jones [00:50:55] To be fair, I really was nervous about it. I really was wondering what word do we use now? And I believe it is sex worker.  

Hunter Mclendon [00:51:06] It is sex worker. It's much better than just mispronouncing whore.  

Annie Jones [00:51:12] But that is why I love you, though. This is behind a paywall. Hopefully people are nice.  

Hunter Mclendon [00:51:19] Honestly, listen, if you are surprised don't call me out. Don't be homophobic. Just getting it out. So Newt's mom had this relationship with Jake Woodrow, and seeing Jake from that lens immediately made me tender to him. And so I think that in that respect, I like him. And so I think anything else, I was just kind of like, I don't care. Like, if Newt likes him, I do.  

Annie Jones [00:51:49] One of the concerns or, issues that kept coming up for readers on Patreon was the lengthy character list and how they felt inundated by characters right off the bat. I'm going to say two things about that, and then I'd like to know what you thought. So first of all, this is just a friendly reminder that I use the reading guide, and I keep track of characters on the back. I'm showing it to Hunter. Nobody else is here. But maybe I'll post it on Instagram or something. That's how I'm keeping track of characters. However, I did not use it until today when I was working on notes for this episode, and then I was like, oh, I better write down who some of these main characters are. Because, weirdly, I was not super confused. And this goes back to you and I and the way we approach classics, I think, which is, we are big picture readers. And so I assume that if I don't remember (here comes a pun) all the deets about Deets, that's okay. Because eventually Larry McMurtry is going to remind me who he is. Or I have the physical book in front of me, I can flip back a few pages and figure it out. So I'm not too worried about that. This feels different from Dickens to me. Maybe I'm wrong. I'm keeping track of characters by utilizing the back of my reading guide. But I am not as concerned about a character list for this book. What are your thoughts on this?  

Hunter Mclendon [00:53:19] So I never make a character list. Let me tell you something. I think a really good example for a book that I read that was really-- I read A Little Life by Hanya Yanagihara back in 2015. And in that book there's a lot of, like, little characters introduced, but it's four main characters. And I mix them up for the first, like, 100 pages. And I really just kept tracking because I thought to myself, eventually I'll figure it out. So in my mind, anytime I read something, I'm very easily confused by anything. I'm often really tired and burnt out. But I always think to myself, like, well, it'll figure itself out. And then the next time I read it, I'm like, I know who you are.  

Annie Jones [00:54:07] Okay, wait. Not that we need to psychoanalyze, and I know we need to move on because we have a lot of questions to get to, but I actually think this is a way my personality and your personality overlap a little. Which is I may have been a perfectionist in another life or in different aspects of my life. I'll put it that way. But when it comes to this, I am not. If you give it to me, I'll figure it out. Might not be perfect, but I'll figure it out. And that is definitely how I approach reading this as well. I don't know that I'm going to nail every character. That's a terrible way to word that. I don't know that I'm going to remember every character, but nobody's grading me on this. Like, I don't have to remember every character. Well, I'll figure it out.  

Hunter Mclendon [00:54:50] I will say this-- this is the last thing and then we can move on. But I've read Infinite Jest three times. Which is this book that [crosstalk] Yeah. I read it when I was 19, 23, and 27. And the reason why was because the first time I read it I did not understand anything, and I mostly just cried because I just felt so stupid. And it took me months to read it. And the second time it took me about a month and a half, two months to read it, and I still didn't understand anything. And then the third time I read it, I understood a little bit, and I read it in about three weeks. If you ever read something that is so difficult where you truly do not understand anything, I think what it teaches you is that if you don't get it, you may never get it. And you just got to keep going.  

Annie Jones [00:55:35] Yes. Keep going. I think that would be my encouragement. If these first seven chapters felt, like, wait, I don't know who anybody is. I think that's okay. I think you're going to get it. That will be my encouragement to you. If you felt a little confused, press on. I think we're going to figure it out. I think Larry McMurtry is going to help us figure it out. Okay. I'm going to move on to some questions. This is from the Mommy Pro, she said, "I love all the characters. Gus and Call crack me up with their banter. This is my first Western to read, and I'm surprised at how much I'm invested. Every chapter has something underlined. Lorena's story is heartbreaking, especially knowing this was a common situation for women. This book was published in 1985, and I'm wondering if this had an impression or impact on men during this time. As a way of living and walking through the world, I'm constantly reminded of my dad in Call's character. Stoic, silent, and a complete enigma to me. But I also knew many of my friends Bible Belt Southern Evangelical childhood," who also have fathers of this description. Just curious if this book somehow served as a guide to how to be a man in the 80s?  

Hunter Mclendon [00:56:39] I wonder. I'm very attracted to a lot of the men in the 80s.  

Annie Jones [00:56:47] Are you attracted to these men? Are you attracted to a dirty cowboy?  

Hunter Mclendon [00:56:50] Yes.  

Annie Jones [00:56:51] Yeah. I kind of feel like, who isn't? At least at first glance. You might talk to them and realize, oh, never mind. But I think to start, aren't we all.  

Hunter Mclendon [00:57:00] Well, let me tell you something. This is not quite the same thing, but [inaudible] Mountain people.  

Annie Jones [00:57:07] That's all we have to say. Here's what I think. I will put in a plug for the book Jesus and John Wayne, which is all about how the evangelical movement was influenced by, again, what we would call toxic masculinity or by manly manhood. And so I think what's interesting is Westerns have existed for far longer than the 80s. And so I would argue that we see this influence way before the 80s. Do I think maybe it had a resurgence, because of perhaps Lonesome Dove or Larry McMurtry or the film adaptations or whatever? Yes. Or I think in the 90s-- Oh God, I kept thinking about him today. Walker, Texas Ranger. Do you remember Chuck Norris? Yeah. So I definitely think we saw a resurgence and an uptick in the 80s, 90s, and I think, yes, it probably did influence masculinity. But I'd also argue Call is not the only male character in this book. We also see Gus, who is very different. The way he talks to Lorena, the way he's a little bit more romantic than Call. I think he's a little bit more open with his feelings. So I think it's interesting that if men used Call as an example for what masculinity a manhood should look like, I'm curious why they picked him versus Augustus or versus Newt. Newt's a young man, but anyway. I think those are things worth considering. But I do think Jesus and John Wayne touches on some of this about, like, how the cowboy John Wayne and the literal figure of John Wayne loomed so large, particularly in evangelical culture in the 80s. So I think that's worth considering.  

Hunter Mclendon [00:59:02] But that's good.  

Annie Jones [00:59:04] Okay. From Crystal. "This is my first Conquer a Classic." Welcome, Crystal. "I'm reading it because my son and I are both avid readers, but have vastly different reading tastes, and he read Lonesome Dove last year, and now I am so excited we will be able to discuss a book we both have read." That kind of makes me want to cry. "My question, how do I not bring my present day ideas to the character of Lorena? I have to keep reminding myself of the time period. I want her to tell the men she has a headache or that they smell disgusting."  

Hunter Mclendon [00:59:32] Actually, it's really funny because if you consider the current conversation around sex work, like, in a way, if we were thinking that she would actually be like much more comfortable in this way because she wouldn't have the shame around it.  

Annie Jones [00:59:52] She has quite a bit of agency. She actually seems like a more modern-- I mean, I will agree some of the language around some of these characters, like I said, it's not only of the 80s, it's of the 1870s. Like he's writing about a time period. And so I think that's important to remember that it's not just like, oh, Larry McMurtry writing. No, Larry McMurtry is writing a realistic story thus far. As far as I I know, he's writing a pretty realistic portrayal of the 1870s, 1880s. But I think you're right. I think it's interesting. It'll be interesting to see how she's portrayed throughout the novel, I don't know, but thus far she seems very much in charge. And so through the modern lens, she would actually be unashamed of her work. Does that make sense?  

Hunter Mclendon [01:00:51] Yes.  

Annie Jones [01:00:53] So I don't know if that will help you a little bit, Crystal, but that is one approach I think you could take. Well, she is in charge of her body. She's in charge of her business. She's trying to make money. Her goal. One of my favorite lines from the book was about how, like, she'd always longed for somewhere cold. She was born and knew how to sweat. Like, she knew how to breathe. I thought that was so good. And so she longs to go to San Francisco. So I don't know how McMurtry will continue to portray her, but I thus far will have to agree with you. And you know I normally do love pure of heart characters. And I wanted to love Esther. We keep referencing Esther in Bleak House. I wanted to love that goody two shoes so badly, and I really did not. And so I find Lorena to be a much more interesting character thus far. So I don't know, Crystal, let's keep an eye on it. But that is one approach I would take. Is, hey, she's got agency. She won't let men sleep with her who have not paid her. So I don't know. It is an interesting thing to think about, but that is how I would think about it for now.  

[01:02:12] Okay. From Leslie, "First time participant as well echo all of the Western apprehension and pleasantly converted. I think I have horrible flashbacks of Bonanza and Gunsmoke as a kid. My question would we be best served by keeping some notes, maps, or character lists in hand? There's a lot happening early on, but maybe it's just set up." Leslie, like I said, I keep notes. Hunter doesn't. And I just keep notes. Like, I just keep a very basic character list. But I would argue this is just setup. I don't know, I can't say that for sure, but I think it's all going to pan out. I don't think we have to worry yet. Let's see what the next section holds maybe. But I'm not worried yet. I think we're going to figure it out. I feel like I know who the important characters are. I skipped over Pea Eye a little bit because he's one who I'm like, wait, who's Pea Eye? But I think McMurtry's going to tell me and I'll know more about him next, I don't know. That's how I would do it.  

[01:03:10] Okay. This is a question I researched the most today. This is from Roxie. "My one question is, did Rangers do what the book implies? Is this historically accurate? Did they go in and clear out the Indians first and then call on the military if they needed them like Guss discusses when talking about going to Montana? I have always wondered and dreaded hearing how this took place." Okay, are you ready to hear a brief overview of the Texas Rangers? Okay, listen. And if you're from Texas, you can leave your own notes in the comments. I do feel like Texans are very opinionated about Texas. So if you have your own history of the Texas Rangers, I'm serious, please let us know here. But this is what I found from the Encyclopedia Britannica. Texas Rangers were a loosely organized military force that policed Texas from the time of their initial organization in the 1830s to their merger with the State Highway Patrol in 1935. They are still part of the Texas Highway Patrol. The first Texas Rangers were Minutemen who were hired by settlers as protection against Native American attacks during the Texas Revolution and Texas years as an independent republic. Never forget, they were an independent republic. The Rangers were headquartered in Austin and served as border patrol. The Rangers, who provided their own horses and arms, refused to wear standard uniforms or to salute their officers, but they were noted as much for their highly disciplined esprit de corps as for their deadly marksmanship. They made the six shooter the weapon of the West and at their peak in the 1870s, which is when this book takes place, they effectively brought law and order to hundreds of miles of the Texas frontier.  

[01:04:43] I also would argue that's probably a whitewashed version of what's going on in Texas. And so does that answer did they then call on the military? I don't know. Here's what Wikipedia says. That the 1860s marked a turning point in Rangers history. The US Army could only provide limited and thinly stretched protection in the enormous territory of Texas. It was so big. So the Rangers effectiveness when dealing with these threats convinced the people of the state and political leaders that a well-funded and organized state Ranger force was essential. And that way, they could use the deep familiarity with the territory in the proximity as major advantages in their favor. During the 1870s, many of the Rangers myths were born. So kind of the picture that we maybe have in our heads of desperadoes or killing notorious criminals. They particularly had a decisive role in the defeat of the Comanche, Kiowa and Apache peoples. According to Wikipedia, the Apache dreaded the Texas Rangers, whose guns were always loaded and whose aim was unerring. They slept in the saddle and ate while they rode or done without. When they took up a trail, they followed it determinedly and doggedly, day and night. I thought this was interesting. This was from a Ranger Captain, John Ford, who described Rangers like this: a large proportion were unmarried. A few of them drank intoxicating liquors. Still, it was a company of sober and brave men. They knew their duty, and they did it. While in town, they made no braggadocio demonstration. They did not gallop through the streets, shoot, and yell. They had a specie of moral discipline which developed moral courage. They did right because it was right. Of course, read all of this was tongue in cheek. We know, of course, that a Native American perspective might say something differently.  

[01:06:25] But it really does sound like the book is fairly accurate in what it is portraying, in that the Texas Rangers were the first line of "defense" against the Native American population. They were protecting settlers. They were settling the land of Texas and it seems like they would call in the military as backup, but only if necessary. And in true Texas form, it sounds like they really didn't want them to intervene at all. Like, it sounds like they wanted to just police the land like they wanted to. I did think this was interesting. The American historian Andrew Gable has argued that the Texas Rangers resemble the Royal Canadian Mounted Police. He argues that each organization protected the established order by confining and removing Native Americans by tightly controlling the mixed blood peoples, the African Americans in Texas. And they assisted large scale ranchers against the small scale ranchers and farmers who fenced land. They broke the power of labor unions that tried to organize the workers of industrial corporations. So I do think that was interesting, too. I think we're going to learn a little bit more about the Rangers. But also it's interesting that at this point the Rangers that we're encountering have disbanded, They're not part of the Rangers anymore, but that work is probably in their blood and in their mission. What do you think? How was that, history corner?  

Hunter Mclendon [01:07:40] It was good. It's funny because it did remind me that there were times when I was reading this-- I'm sure if anyone out saw killers of the Flower Moon, I was having like little flashes.  

Annie Jones [01:08:00] I feel like in one classic we read, I think it was Bleak House, but I don't know which character it would have been, that if we were writing a modern take on Bleak House, we would do it from a different person's perspective. I forget whose that was, but it would be interesting. I mean, it's so early in this book, but it would be fascinating to take a book like Lonesome Dove and turn it's on it like what happens when you write a Western from the perspective of the Native American peoples? And maybe somebody has already done that, but I think that would be fascinating.  

Hunter Mclendon [01:08:27] Well, actually, I would just say that was something that was really interesting about How Much of These Hills is Gold. It was following Asian American people like and that's obviously very underrepresented.  

Annie Jones [01:08:43] Yeah. I might want to read that next because I do think it turns out I like the Western genre. Who knew? Okay. From Mary, "Loving this book so far, I'd be interested to hear you all discuss Augustus and Call's relationship. They both seem generally irritated and annoyed by one another, yet they continue on as business partners and may even embark on this new business adventure to Montana together." Jordan Jones, I think would say, "Yep, that's men." I think that Jordan talks about that all the time. He's like, yeah, men can hate each other, but somehow like figure it out to do the work. I think that they have a begrudging respect for one another. And it seems like they worked together so long that, like, Call knows exactly what to expect out of Gus. Gus assumes he knows what to expect out of Call. I think they genuinely love each other, but they also just kind of tolerate each other in their work. That's what it feels like to me. And I really do love them. Jeannie said, "Let's talk about how many vile creatures show up in the first few pages: pigs, snakes, centipedes, blister bugs. No warm fuzzies here. Do you think these creatures are symbols of the main characters, or is this just a statement on the dust and desperation of the setting? What do you think?"  

Hunter Mclendon [01:10:00] Wow, people just do not like these characters. Like everyone's like, they're awful.  

Annie Jones [01:10:06] They're snakes and centipedes.  

Hunter Mclendon [01:10:08] Yeah, I don't know. I mean, maybe. But as of right now, I think it's just really capturing the setting.  

Annie Jones [01:10:16] That's how I approached it. I felt like it was one way of introducing somebody like me who knows nothing about what the West was like in the 1870s and who sets it up so we know it was dirty, it was filthy, there were animals, there are pigs roaming around. It felt like the start of a Southern Gothic novel to me we're supposed to know the grotesque nature of the South. Also, if you live in the South, I'm not saying I just walk outside my door and there are pigs, but I will say I went on a spiritual retreat this time last year and there were all kinds of signs warning me of wild boars. Like all this stuff. Weirdly, I'm not from Texas. I don't live in Texas in the Texas heat, but it does feel weirdly familiar. I'm like, yeah. Centipedes? Sure.  

Hunter Mclendon [01:11:06] I mean, when we read Liar's Club by Mary Karr, I was like, oh yes! Yes. Makes sense.  

Annie Jones [01:11:12] Yes. This feels right. Okay, let's see. Okay. I thought this was interesting. Megan talks about the characters and their next nicknames. She gets a little nervous, but the writing is so strong she feels like she's there. She's curious to see what happens when the plot starts moving. Do we think they're all going to fight over the girl. Lorena or Clara?  

Hunter Mclendon [01:11:30] Okay. I've never fought over a girl, so that doesn't ever occur to me.  

Annie Jones [01:11:36] No. He's still thinking about what's going to happen to poor, precious teddy bear, Newt.  

Hunter Mclendon [01:11:41] Yeah, like bubble thing.  

Annie Jones [01:11:45] I have a feeling we're going to get a lot more out of Lorena. I'm curious to see if we get more out of Clara or if she's just like a specter in the book. I don't know if they're going to fight over a girl. I can't tell yet. I think we're going to get an epic adventure, I hope. Here's what I hope. Normally, I hope for death and destruction. Everyone knows this. I hope that people die in books. That's not entirely true, but also partially true. I hope for this book is an epic adventure. I hope we're about to go to Montana, and we're going to get an adventure story out of this. Because I do like an adventure story and I like reading them. And if there's a little romance, so be it, but that's what I'm here for. I think it's going to be like from Texas to Montana some kind of like road trip story.  

Hunter Mclendon [01:12:29] Maybe we should go ahead and get your predictions for who you think is going to die in this episode.  

Annie Jones [01:12:33] Newt.  

Hunter Mclendon [01:12:34] I knew you were going to say that. Yeah.  

Annie Jones [01:12:36] Newt. Dead. Yeah. He's too pure for this world.  

Hunter Mclendon [01:12:40] Yeah, he is. [Crosstalk].  

Annie Jones [01:12:46]  That's my early prediction for a death. Okay. I'm going to skip to Ellen. I'm going to wait to answer Abby's question. Abby had a question about Pea Eye. Well, let me bring Abby's question to you. I did not research this question because it came in right before we recorded. So Abby said, "This is my first Conquer a Classic. I'm excited to work through this book this year. I'm trying to get a grasp on all the characters. I do have a specific question. I thought somewhere Pea Eye mentions he could easily have been a slave. This made me think he was a black man, but in the TV and movies he is played by white men. I would love to see if anyone else had this thought or if I misread it." Okay, I actually thought Deets was a black man. They talk about his bright smile in his very dark skin. So I thought Deets was a black Texas Ranger. That is how I read it. I thought Pea Eye-- when they start talking about slavery, I think it's around page 25. They're talking about slavery and Abe Lincoln and General Lee. And Augusta says it wasn't General Lee, it was Abe Lincoln who freed the slaves. Boulivar shrugged, "No difference." "A big difference," Call said. One was a Yankee and one wasn't. Pea Eye got interested for a minute. The beans in Sal belly had revived him. He'd been very interested in the notion of emancipation, and had studied over it a lot when he went about his work. It was obviously just pure luck he himself hadn't been born a slave, but he if he had been unlucky, Lincoln would have freedom. It gave him a certain admiration for the man. He just freed Americans, he pointed out to Boulivar. Augustus snorted, "You're in over your head, Pea. Who Abe Lincoln freed was a bunch of Africans, no more American than Call here." And then we know that Call is Scottish by some comments that are made next. I think I read that as Pea is impoverished and felt like he was lucky enough to be born "a white man" but he could have been a black man just like anybody else. That's just how I read it. And then there's a description of Deets later in the book that made me think Deets was a black Texas Ranger. And I don't know who any of these people were portrayed by in the movie. I haven't looked it up. 

Hunter Mclendon [01:14:59] I just looked and saw that the guy who's playing is white.  

Annie Jones [01:15:09] Is Deet white too?  

Hunter Mclendon [01:15:12] Let me see.  

Annie Jones [01:15:13] Well, I'm just curious now. I'm like, did I misread that?  

Hunter Mclendon [01:15:16] I know. It's so funny because literally both of them, when you search, it shows-- i[inaudible]. I think it's like a constant. That's funny.  

Hunter Mclendon [01:15:29] This is the lone black man in the Hat Creek Cattle Company.  

Annie Jones [01:15:33] Okay, so Deets is a black Texas ranger or former Texas Ranger. Pea Eye-- Abby, it seems like you're not alone in that reading, that some people may have read it that way as well. I did not, but that doesn't mean I'm correct. It sounds like there's debate about it. Okay. From Ellen. Last question. "For me, this is a perfect example of you don't remember the details of books. You remember how they made you feel. [inaudible]. I just remember loving it with all the emotion, so I'm really looking forward to reading it again. Two things I'm curious about. I was a big fan of Larry McMurtry back in the 70s and 80s. I read almost all of his books except the Westerns. Lonesome Dove was the only one of those, and I remember thinking that he wrote women characters so well. I'm curious to know if this will hold up through a 2024 lens." Well, I think Lorena seems to be somebody that has piqued a lot of folks interest. So this will be interesting to see how we feel about his portrayal of women.  

And then, she said, I read or heard an interview with him at some point, maybe Fresh Air, where he talked about his goal in writing Lonesome Dove was to portray the not so great side of the Old West or Texas, especially at the end of its heyday. I'm wondering if that will come through as well. I mean, I definitely think so far you get the sense that these are not men in their prime. They're hanging out at Lorena's. They're hanging out at the bar. I think I really weirdly loved the scene where, like, he's making breakfast and they're just going about their kind of daily tasks and it feels like they're a little bit at a loss as to what to do. And I think Jake comes back and he's like, I didn't know you guys would still be here. They're kind of surprised that they've stayed put. And it's like they don't know what to do after being Texas Rangers. And so I could very much get the sense that these are tired men trying to figure out what's next, or if they have energy or capacity for anything next. And maybe their heroism only took them so far. I don't know. That's the vibe I get so far. I think those are really good questions and good things to keep an eye on as we read. I already find Lorena really compelling, and so I'll give that to Larry McMurtry. I was told Dickens was so good about women-- and he may be-- but I did not find Esther to be particularly particularly interesting.  

Hunter Mclendon [01:17:54] It's so funny because, The Last Picture Show and Terms of Endearment are both, really famous film adaptations of McMurtry's work. And they both are very women centric in the storytelling. Terms of Endearment, they've had the movie with Shirley MacLaine and. And so it's really interesting to think that. So yeah, I wonder how this is going to...  

Annie Jones [01:18:16] Yeah. To see how a man portrayed or wrote these main female protagonists. Okay. How are you feeling? How are you feeling the end of round one month one.  

Hunter Mclendon [01:18:27] Honestly, this is the most optimistic I have felt since [inaudible] probably.  

Annie Jones [01:18:32] I'm having a great time. I'm genuinely happy. And Count of Monte Cristo, I had a few months like that where I was like, oh, I'm really happy with this. But I think these characters are so well drawn already. I already have a deep sense of who they are or who they're going to become throughout the book, and I like them. I think they're interesting and I think the book is deeply funny. It's good writing. It's really good writing. Anyway, there was a great scene about a hat, like where they talk about a hat looking like a chamber pot. I don't know. The banter I think is good. And, weirdly, nothing has happened in these first seven chapters, but I feel like he's set us up for stuff to happen, I think.  

Hunter Mclendon [01:19:15] Yeah. No, I'm I'm definitely very excited. I'm just very invested. I love the pros. I really like the character dynamic so far. And I just find this such easy reading and I love that.  

Annie Jones [01:19:30] Yeah, I do too. Okay. Thank you everybody. Just as a heads up, these episodes, they drop at the end of every month, the last Friday of every month. Next month we will be reading chapters eight through 15. You can still find the reading guide on Patreon. We would love for you to comment in the chat on Patreon how you felt after reading this first section. If you agreed with some of our takes. If you found these characters to be unlikable, I'd love for you to give us more reason why. If you have tips or tricks for keeping track of characters for your fellow readers, I'd love for you to put them there. Because some of you are really so great at being detail readers when that is obviously not my or Hunter's forte. So let us know what you think. Let us know how you've enjoyed this first section and we will see you next month. Bye, Hunter.  

Hunter Mclendon [01:20:13] Bye.  

Annie Jones [01:20:14] This week I'm reading The Ministry of Time by Kaliane Bradley  

Annie Jones [01:20:16] From the Front Porch is a weekly podcast production of The Bookshelf, an independent bookstore in Thomasville, Georgia. You can follow The Bookshelf’s daily happenings on Instagram at @bookshelftville, and all the books from today’s episode can be purchased online through our store website: bookshelfthomasville.com A full transcript of today’s episode can be found at: fromthefrontporchpodcast.com 

Special thanks to Studio D Podcast Production for production of From the Front Porch and for our theme music, which sets the perfect warm and friendly tone for our Thursday conversations. 

Our Executive Producers of today’s episode are… 

Cammy Tidwell, Linda Lee Drozt, Martha, Stephanie Dean, Ashley Ferrell, Jennifer Bannerton 

Executive Producers (Read Their Own Names): Nicole Marsee, Wendi Jenkins, Susan Hulings

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