Episode 478 || Publishing a Book with Jonathan Merritt
This week on From the Front Porch, Annie chats with literary agent and author Jonathan Merritt! Jonathan’s new picture book, My Guncle and Me, available now, is delightful summer reading for families. Jonathan is Annie’s literary agent, and today they dig into the publishing world, his writing process and new book, and more.
To purchase the books mentioned in this episode, visit our website or or download and shop on The Bookshelf’s official app:
My Guncle and Me by Jonathan Merritt
From the Front Porch is a weekly podcast production of The Bookshelf, an independent bookstore in South Georgia. You can follow The Bookshelf’s daily happenings on Instagram, Tiktok, and Facebook, and all the books from today’s episode can be purchased online through our store website, www.bookshelfthomasville.com.
A full transcript of today’s episode can be found below.
Special thanks to Dylan and his team at Studio D Podcast Production for sound and editing and for our theme music, which sets the perfect warm and friendly tone for our Thursday conversations.
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Our Executive Producers are...Jennifer Bannerton, Stephanie Dean, Linda Lee Drozt, Ashley Ferrell, Susan Hulings, Wendi Jenkins, Martha, Nicole Marsee, Gene Queens, Cammy Tidwell, and Amanda Whigham.
Transcript:
[squeaky porch swing]
Welcome to From the Front Porch, a conversational podcast about books, small business, and life in the South. [music plays out] [as music fades out]
“What matters is love / And how much you’re giving / To a wide range of friends / Among whom you’re living / But in order to love / Other people that way / You must first love yourself / And know you’re okay.”
― Jonathan Merritt, My Guncle and Me
I’m Annie Jones, owner of The Bookshelf, an independent bookstore in beautiful downtown Thomasville, Georgia, and this week, I’m chatting with literary agent and author Jonathan Merritt about the book publishing process. We don’t do a ton of interviews on From the Front Porch these days, but I knew I had to make an exception for Jonathan — he happens to be my literary agent, and his new picture book, My Guncle and Me, released last week, perfect for summer reading with your families.
Before we launch into our conversation, a quick reminder that if you’ve ever wondered what the store-behind-the-podcast actually looks like, you can follow The Bookshelf on Instagram or — I can’t believe it — on TikTok at bookshelftville. We post behind-the-scenes pictures, videos, and various shenanigans, and also give updates like store hours, shop events, and special deals. Summer is a great time to follow us there, so you can easily keep in touch and see what's happening at the shop, often in real time. Just tap over to our show notes and follow us on Instagram or TikTok to stay up to date. Now back to the show. Hi, Jonathan.
Johnathan Merritt [00:01:49] Hi. It's so good to be on with you.
Annie Jones [00:01:52] This is so fun and so exciting because I actually think a lot of our listeners-- well, they're obviously readers-- but I think they care deeply about the publishing process. But if they're like me, I only know one side of things. I know the bookselling side of things. And so often we'll get local authors in the store and things like that, and they'll ask about the process. And as a staff, we're always pretty in the dark about that. We're very much aware of what happens with hand selling and book buying. But we are not as aware of or privy to the publishing business. And you are. And so, I think listeners are really going to be interested in what you have to say.
Johnathan Merritt [00:02:35] Well, yeah, and it's interesting because there's a lot of studies that are done on this. The New York Times had a write up about this not too long ago, that somewhere between 70 and 81% of Americans think they have a book inside them, which means that most of the people who are listening this, that number may even be higher.
Annie Jones [00:02:53] Probably higher for a reader.
Johnathan Merritt [00:02:54] Yeah. So, they think they have a book inside of them. They would love one day to be sitting in a chair just like yours as a forthcoming author, if I can say that. But often they feel like sort of mystified by it feel sort of unattainable. And it's like this world they don't have access to. And so, to demystify it in this way, just like you've done with bookselling, I think is a great service to a lot of people.
Annie Jones [00:03:19] Yeah, I certainly hope so, because it does feel a little secretive, the whole book publishing process. So hopefully you can let us in on some secrets.
Johnathan Merritt [00:03:28] Behind the curtains.
Annie Jones [00:03:29] Yeah, exactly. Okay, so this may seem like a very basic question, but it was certainly one that I had prior to being introduced to you via email. What is the difference-- and I hope I'm not alone in this question. The difference between literary agents, which you are, publicists and editors. I feel like it's almost like two those names or those titles are used interchangeably, but they're very much not interchangeable. Those are very distinct jobs and responsibilities in the book publishing world. So, what's the difference among those three?
Johnathan Merritt [00:04:03] Yep. Three Ps. The literary agent pitches the book. So, they're the one that creates-- when you came to me, we worked, we developed a book, we developed a book proposal. I have a series of relationships that I've developed over the years with major book publishers. I began to pitch to those publishers. I did a lot of research about who would be interested in a book like this. We pitched it to these publishers, and then I shepherded it through that process. Now, in addition to that, the literary agent sort of holds the hand of the author and serves as a liaison through the process. But their main job is really to pitch and sell the book to make sure that you are protected, that you get a good deal, that your book finds a good home. The editor then produces the book. They work with you. Editor sort of sounds a little it's a bit of a misnomer because you think they're just sort of working with the words, but they're working with everything.
[00:04:58] What's the trim size, the page count, the page quality? Where is it going to be printed? How is it going to be distributed? They're the like quarterback that works with sales and marketing and everybody else inside the publishing house. And so, if you've got the book pitch now, you've got the book produced, you've got to have the book promoted. And so that's where the publicist comes in. So, they kind of get a glimpse at the final or near final product and they then take that out and figure out how do we find these amplifiers either in earned media or now we have a lot of social media that we're using to promote these books. And then they maintain those relationships. So, they go out to people who would be big fans of yours and say, hey, don't you want to cheer about this book? And of course, you're going to learn a whole lot about that real soon.
Annie Jones [00:05:46] Yeah, fingers crossed I can navigate that process. I do think whenever I have thought about the role that you specifically play, advocate is definitely the word that comes to mind. And then I do think you're like a book doula. You're like a book midwife. I feel like you're helping liaise between me and the publisher. But you're also like helping birth the book into the world. It's really a cool thing you get to do.
Johnathan Merritt [00:06:14] Yes. And I've actually said this a lot. I have people say, what do you do? Because when you go, you're an agent and you're also an author. And are those like two separate buckets? Are they like two currents in the same river? And what I always say is I am somebody who gets up in the morning and is excited about producing ideas and translating ideas into the world. And sometimes my feet are in the stirrups and sometimes I'm the midwife, where you're the one in the process of releasing this thing, and I'm helping to shepherd it and develop it and cheer you on and guide you through the wisdom that makes this process productive. I remember when the very first time that you and I talked about your book and I was like, this is a book that should be written, and also, I'm not the person to write it. So, my calling in that space is to come alongside you and hold your hand and to make sure that it makes its way into the world as smoothly as possible.
Annie Jones [00:07:17] So you mentioned, obviously, you're an author. We're going to talk about your really wonderful children's book that released last week. But before we do that, I am curious what your career background was. So, were you an author first? And what were you even before you were an author and writer? Because I knew you from the internet. Like I knew from maybe what? Like The Atlantic or Christianity Today. I knew you from something. Maybe even Twitter back in the day. So, I'm just curious, what led you to become a literary agent and to enter this world?
Johnathan Merritt [00:07:51] Well, I started out really as a columnist and a journalist. And so, I was writing in shorter form first before I ever started writing books.
Annie Jones [00:08:08] Like, is that what you did? Were you a journalism major? I was a journalism major [inaudible].
Johnathan Merritt [00:08:12] In some ways I wish I was a journalism major. I majored in biology and chemistry. I thought I was going to be a doctor and, I really burnt out on that. And so, I was working as a consultant for a chemical company applying to medical school. And I was like, I hate this. I don't want to do this forever. So those of us who are raised Christian will understand this language, but a kind of calling moment where I felt like this voice inside me was, like, you're going to write. And I had never written, I never published anything. And this is an encouragement, by the way, to all the people out there who goes, "Well, I don't have a degree in this, and I've never done it." That was me. And so, I just began to kind of claw my way into it by writing these publications and asking them if I could do the things nobody wanted to do. Can I do the short news article? Can I do the film review for $30? Can I do all the things nobody wanted to do? And I won over those editors and slowly worked my way up until I was writing feature stories and cover stories and then books.
[00:09:16] And then I became a ghost writer, and I was very, very successful as a ghost writer. I worked on dozens of books, and what I realized is people were bringing me in and paying me to develop their book, and then I would step out and their agent would sell the book, and then I would step back in and I would work with them to produce it. And my agent one day was like, you're so good at this. You have all of these relationships. Why don't you just try agenting as well? You already have a hand in every part of this process except this one area. And I was like, I'm not going to like it. And then I tried it out and I loved it. So, it becomes kind of-- and you know this from the process that we went through with you. And I'll let people in; I'll give you a little sneak peek behind the curtain. But we create this thing and we have no guarantee. When we took your proposal out, we had no guarantee. We shopped it out and then it's the game. I'm trying to get everybody excited about it. And we're on phone calls with people and we're doing these interviews and it's like speed dating almost.
Annie Jones [00:10:22] Yes. Exactly.
Johnathan Merritt [00:10:23] The bell goes off and you're in another seat with another potential suitor. And so, you make it all the way through until you find out, like, where are you going to make this deal? And in your case, I'll say it was just that's exactly what you want. Where you go, we really made the perfect deal. The personality fit of the publisher and the author were totally compatible. And so, when you get that hit-- and I'll say from my perspective, I go, I just want to do it again and again.
Annie Jones [00:10:53] Yes. There's like almost probably a high that comes from, oh, I did this and now I'm addicted to it and I want to do it again. I'm so intrigued because writing is associated with this introverted personality type, which certainly I embody. And one of the things that I loved upon meeting you was-- I was like, oh, Jonathan will be what I cannot be, which is the mover, the shaker, the person who really woos people in a way that, quite frankly, I am not capable of. There's not a schmoozy bone in my body. And so, to meet somebody like you and realize, oh, with our powers combined, maybe we can make something happen. And so, it's intriguing to me that you are a writer as well. But somehow you also are incredibly gifted in building relationships, making connections. You've got, like, that connector personality type, which maybe I have only because of my work as a bookstore owner and having to introduce people and market the store to an audience. But has that always come naturally to you?
Johnathan Merritt [00:11:58] Well, I'm curious actually. Do you do you know your Enneagram type?
Annie Jones [00:12:01] Yeah, I'm a five. Hard five.
Johnathan Merritt [00:12:04] Okay. And are you a five wing four?
Annie Jones [00:12:05] Okay. My wing is always in debate, but yes, I believe I am a five wing four.
Johnathan Merritt [00:12:09] Okay. And I'm a three, which is an achiever. So, for the uninitiated, the five is kind of the learner. And the three is the achiever, the mover and shaker as you said. And the learner is like the book nerd. And then the four is like the creative, the artist. And so, you kind of have both wings to some extent. But that's where our Venn diagrams overlap. And that's why I can write a book and both sell a book. And you can write a book, and also you love poring over the catalog and hand selecting the books and going through and curating. Which I would never want to do. I just want to work the cash register; do you see what I'm saying?
Annie Jones [00:12:51] Yes.
Johnathan Merritt [00:12:51] So some of it is just natural gifted. And from my perspective, there are all kinds of parts of the process that I really can geek out on. One day you're going to get an envelope in the mail, and inside that envelope is going to be a book with your name on it.
Annie Jones [00:13:13] I know I can't even think about it without wanting to cry.
Johnathan Merritt [00:13:16] And that book is going to go into the Library of Congress and it will exist forever and ever. And by the way, that book is going to become a member of families out there, a fixture. There are going to be people who are going to 30 years, from that day, will look back and say, yeah, I was going to do this and then I read this book and then I did this. And it's going to alter lives. It's a crazy feeling. And as a literary agent, I get a little snippet of that without having to do all of the boring work. If somebody doesn't like it, I don't have to read the hate mail. I don't have to have all of the feelings about it, but I get to go on that ride with you and just enjoy the beautiful part. And so that feeds that. Like, I get to ring the bell a lot. That hits my Enneagram three. And then helping you create is that four energy, that artist energy.
Annie Jones [00:14:11] I had never thought about it that way. But that really does make a lot of sense. But my husband is a three. And talk about Enneagram, Myers-Briggs all the time. We're probably annoying actually about it, so but that makes sense. Okay, so how many authors do you represent at any given time? Like are these people that you follow? For example, if somebody writes multiple books, do you follow them to multiple publishers or through multiple publishing processes? How does this work? How many clients do you have? That kind of thing?
Johnathan Merritt [00:14:42] Our agency represents a ton of clients across genres. I represent-- I'd have to sit down and count, but probably all in all a few dozen clients. And so, you have to be pretty choosy. And what will happen is, some people write a book and that's sort of it. You never really hear from them again. And I have a couple of clients that are like that, that I've represented for one book. It's been a couple of years. Maybe they'll write again, maybe they won't. They're off and doing other things. But they did their deal. That's not really what I'm looking for. I'm looking for people like you. People like you are what we would call brand authors. They can write. You could be 80 years old, sitting at a desk, looking out over a pond and typing on, whatever computer would come.
Annie Jones [00:15:29] That's the dream. Yeah.
Johnathan Merritt [00:15:30] Yeah, you'll be thinking something, and it will just appear in some cloud somewhere. That would be the analog of book publishing. So, I want folks who are going to work over the long haul to produce lots and lots and lots of books. And then I do follow their career often to different publishing houses. So, you'll cross publishing houses a lot. And then sometimes (this has happened) you'll cross genres. I have an author who is an essayist. And this year we signed a book of poetry and also a children's book. So sometimes it crosses genres. The thing I have the least experience in is novels. We do represent some novels. I'm sure you carry some books probably about Charles Martin.
Annie Jones [00:16:18] Yes. He's big. The ladies love Charles.
Johnathan Merritt [00:16:22] They love Charles.
Annie Jones [00:16:24] They love Charles so, so much. Locally, people are big fans.
Johnathan Merritt [00:16:29] So much. Yeah. Down in the South, I feel like those Gulf of Mexico states. Like anything that kind of wraps around the Gulf of Mexico, ladies love Charles Martin.
Annie Jones [00:16:39] Wait. Can I tell you a funny story?
Johnathan Merritt [00:16:41] Yeah.
Annie Jones [00:16:41] He came to The Bookshelf during Lent. I think this will be okay to say on the podcast. It's very complimentary to Charles. But, anyway, we were hosting a book signing for him, and it happened to fall during Lent, and a woman saw our poster with Charles's face in advertising, and they said, "Oh my gosh, The Bookshelf is hosting hot guy Lent." And I was like, wow, here we are just on brand for The Bookshelf hosting hot guy Lent That's great.
Johnathan Merritt [00:17:11] Yes. Oh, my gosh.
Annie Jones [00:17:13] Yeah. So how do you discover authors? I know our story, but is that typical for you? Because you're so connected, are you following people on social media and reaching out that way? How are you discovering writers?
Johnathan Merritt [00:17:30] Well, my primary way, would be referrals. So, writers know writers who know writers. And on occasion, once I get into lull, like right now I'm in whatever the opposite of a lull is because I had a huge year last year. Thank you very much Annie Jones, et al. So, lots and lots of books signed last year, more than 3 or 4 times the number of books signed in a year, maybe than I would do on average. So, it was a big year. I'm not really in lull. So, you've got to really capture my attention. I've turned down probably six or eight of the proposals I've received this year and I've taken on one of those. But if you refer someone to me, it does not matter what they've written about whatever, I will read that proposal. I will consider that author. So always referrals. And you came to me not by an author referral, but a family member of yours that I knew. And who said you should meet this relative of mine. And I was like, okay.
[00:18:36] And then when I was like, oh my gosh, this person is absolutely the perfect person. So, referrals is number one. But then there are other times where I will find someone online and I'll just be really taken by their content or platform. I'll read a column that somebody has written in the New York Times, and I'll reach out. And then I'll assign someone that way very rarely. But on some occasions, I will find someone because they go to the agency website, christopherferebee.com, and they submit a proposal and say, I want Jonathan to look at this. Now, I will look at it. If I get it, I'll at least scan it. And on rare occasion I've gotten someone that way. But I would say it's mostly either say 60% referrals, 30% me sort of contacting them and recruiting them, and then about 10% submissions.
Annie Jones [00:19:37] Okay. Are you working primarily with first time authors? Are you working with seasoned authors? What's your kind of division there?
Johnathan Merritt [00:19:47] It's a mix. I would say a lot of mine are first time authors, and the best thing to do is you get a first-time author and then they're loyal to you over their career. Like somebody calls and they go, no, thank you, I have a relationship here. And that's the goal, is you get somebody early. But what I find is a lot of people know that Jonathan Merritt is a bulldog and I'm highly protective of my clients. I'm a very aggressive negotiator. Our firm's founding partner is an attorney. And so most agents are not attorneys. And so, every one of my clients gets legal reviews of all of their contracts free without any charge. I think that's very important in a litigious age. And so, I'm offering, I think, a better service than most literary agents out there. We're also a more midsize or small firm, and so you're not interacting with my assistant. You can text me. You get high personal touch, highly communicative
Annie Jones [00:20:47] Which is nice. Yeah.
Johnathan Merritt [00:20:48] And if you're with like WME, that's not what you're getting unless you're Savannah Guthrie or something. So, if you're a big, big name. And so, they're getting high touch and a very aggressive agent. So, I have started to get some people who have been dissatisfied with their agent or their agent has retired, and they've come to me and said, "Hey, I've got this great career. Will you take it over the line for this next season?" So, I have a few of those.
Annie Jones [00:21:16] What is your favorite part of the work that you do?
Johnathan Merritt [00:21:25] I'll give you an analogy. I live in New York City. I live in Manhattan, in the neighborhood in Chelsea. And when you first moved to Manhattan, you trip over things because you're constantly looking up. And you're passing by the architecture and the scale of these sentinels on the streets. And then there comes a day where you notice that you're not noticing the city anymore. And you can still look up, but the feeling that you felt when you used to look up is not there anymore. The extraordinary has become mundane from overexposure. I remember the first time that I held a book in my hand and it had my name on it, the first time I saw my name in print in the New York Times, the first time that I was a ghost writer on a project that was a New York Times bestseller and it had my name on the title page, I know those moments. And now those moments have happened so often that I don't even notice it anymore. It's just business as usual. But what I love about living in New York is when a friend comes to visit for the first time, and I can watch them watching the skyscrapers, watching the city. And it kind of takes me back. It's this kind of vicarious experience, and I feel like I get a piece of that. The joy and the elation and the newness and the wonder and the excitement and the expectation that I get to experience by proxy through all of my authors. All the time they'll say, "I can't even believe this is happening."
Annie Jones [00:23:17] I feel I said that many times. Yeah. Like, is this real? Are we doing this?
Johnathan Merritt [00:23:22] And, of course, I knew it happened because I'm doing this all the time. I kind of knew where this was going to go because I've got that muscle memory. But then to experience your wonder and your joy brings it back. And I don't think a lot of people get to do that in their jobs. I don't think the average tax accountant or whatever is having those wonder moments in their job and having gratitude. And then you send great gifts, by the way.
Annie Jones [00:23:50] Oh, thanks!
Johnathan Merritt [00:23:52] So some of my clients send great gifts and they send like local little-- I think authors they tend to be kind of reflective and thoughtful. I get these great gifts. Like, who gets this in their job? It's such a wonderful job as long as this industry survives. And who knows how long it will.
Annie Jones [00:24:09] I know, knock on wood.
Johnathan Merritt [00:24:10] I know. Thank you. But it's a wonderful, wonderful job to have because of the people I work with and the emotions that are involved in the process.
Annie Jones [00:24:20] That's such a lovely way to put it. And I think that is one of the things I love about bookselling, is we have those moments of magic and wonder when we host an event or a kid comes up to the register and buys a book with his own money for the first time or something like that. We have those magical moments that remind me, oh, yeah, this is why I do what I do.
Johnathan Merritt [00:24:42] Well. And back to that previous analogy, I've never met anyone whose life has been changed by a really great tax return.
Annie Jones [00:24:51] Right.
Johnathan Merritt [00:24:52] But you know people who have absolutely into your store and they picked up a book unaware, and it's like an axe fell on their life.
Annie Jones [00:25:02] Yeah.
Johnathan Merritt [00:25:02] And there was the person they were before they read that book and the person they were after it. The fact that we are able to traffic and transformation is unbelievably unique. That we are altering the trajectories of people's ways of seeing the world, thinking about the world, interacting with the world. I mean, that is something else. That's special.
Annie Jones [00:25:25] Yeah, we really are so lucky. Okay, so you have authored a few books, all for adults. Now you have this new children's book. It is beautiful and charming and really touching. It's really lovely. What made you be, like, I'm going to write a kid's book today.
Johnathan Merritt [00:25:44] Well, I'll give you the long story medium. Again, I'm going to go back to calling language, I suppose, but I felt this calling to start working on children's books, and I didn't know why. It was totally inexplicable. And I went to Chris, our eponymous partner, and he said that's the one genre we don't do. It's totally different. The editors are totally different. We don't have the relationship; we don't do it. The proposals are different. And I said, well, we're about to start doing it. I feel called to do it. So, I was like, okay God, okay universe, make a way. So, I took a course through the BBC on how to write children's books and how to make children's books. That was really, really helpful. That was done by Julia Donaldson, the woman who wrote The Gruffalo.
Annie Jones [00:26:31] Yeah.
Johnathan Merritt [00:26:31] Yeah, she's written just a ton of books. It's a lovely British woman sitting on a porch in her living room, talking about how to write children's books for 25 lectures. And it was so helpful. But then I needed clients. And I'm telling you, it was unbelievable the way the universe started drop kicking doors. I was at a conference and somebody was on stage talking about a children's book they wanted to produce. I waited for them at the stairs. They came down, I signed them, I sold it to Penguin Random House. I had a friend's daughter who randomly texted me and said, "Hey, I wrote a children's book. Can you help me? I don't know what to do." She didn't even know I was an agent. Shared it with an editor at HarperCollins, boom, sold the children's book.
Annie Jones [00:27:14] Wow!
Johnathan Merritt [00:27:15] I met a woman in the courtyard outside of my apartment and heard her saying that her husband had died, and it had given her an idea for a children's book. And I said, "I'm a literary agent. Why don't you give me the pitch?" She pitched it to me. It was unbelievable. I signed her on the spot and we sold at HarperCollins. It will come out in the spring of next year. So, I started signing all these books, and when I was working on them, I found all this joy in it. So, you and I were talking before we started this recording. I live next to another author, Shauna Niequist, and we were having happy hour in the courtyard and I kind of made this confession. I said, "I think I want to write a children's book." And she said, "Oh my gosh, what do you want to write it about?" And I said, "Well, that's the thing, I don't know." And she said, "Why don't you write it about being a guncle?" And it was like this ember in my heart, and she sort of cupped her hands and blew on it, and it just burst into flame.
Annie Jones [00:28:14] How wonderful.
Johnathan Merritt [00:28:16] And I have lived alongside these families-- I live in a kind of communal setting here at an old seminary. And during the pandemic, they invited me to live alongside their children and to be this honored member of their family. This is our table. Sit at our table. This is your seat at our table. And it changed my life.
Annie Jones [00:28:37] Yeah. That's powerful.
Johnathan Merritt [00:28:38] They say write what you know. So, the next day I got up. And over the next couple of months, I wrote this book and it was almost like I was channeling it more than I was creating it.
Annie Jones [00:28:55] I can barely read it without kind of tearing up because, even if we're not guncles, I think a lot of us do come alongside families, particularly those of us who don't have children, and we become honorary members of these families. And we love their kids and we take care of their kids, but there's not a lot of literature about that. Particularly kid lit, there might be some adult lit that touches on it a little bit. I think Elizabeth Gilbert wrote a really great essay about aunties and things like that. But we don't get a ton of it. There's a lot of books about grandparents, but not really about those of us who may not even be blood related to these families, but we come alongside them and I hope help raise their kids. And so, I read it and immediately think about the aunt who helped raise me, or the people in our lives who helped our parents raise us. After you kind of wrote it-- which I do have a question. Just as a bookseller, I love a rhyming kid’s book because we do story time every week, mostly to toddlers, maybe a little bit older. And what really resonates is a rhyming book because the kids can kind of memorize it and catch the rhythm of it and feel like they're reading alongside you. And so, why did you decide to go the rhyming route instead of prose? And then was that an easy sell then to a publisher?
Johnathan Merritt [00:30:24] Yeah. The answer is no. It was not an easy sell to a publisher, and I did not know that. So, this is the thing. Because so many of us our imaginations were shaped by Doctor Seuss in childhood-- Doctor Seuss was incredibly popular children's author-- and so we're used to these rhyming books, books written in rhyme. These days, as more publishers have sort of consolidated into these big conglomerates, they're playing a different game. And they're not just thinking about the local booksellers, they're thinking about how they can sell books in Kathmandu and the UK and Australia and all the China. And so rhyming books can't be translated.
Annie Jones [00:31:16] Oh, interesting. I've never thought about that.
Johnathan Merritt [00:31:19] Most publishers do not want a rhyming book. So, I really struggled actually with this book. And I'll tell you, this will be another encouragement. I posted a little bit of this on social media. We shopped this to 21 publishers. That's actually a lot.
Annie Jones [00:31:37] Which is a lot.
Johnathan Merritt [00:31:38] We don't normally shop to that many.
Annie Jones [00:31:39] That's a lot.
Johnathan Merritt [00:31:40] I got 19 rejections.
Annie Jones [00:31:42] Oh my gosh. And it's so beautiful. It really is beautiful. I'm not just saying that because you're here. It's a lovely book. Nineteen nos.
Johnathan Merritt [00:31:49] And a lot of them including Hyperion Disney. They came back and said, "Hey, we love the concept. Can you write it in verse? We want it in prose."
Annie Jones [00:32:04] They did not want it in rhyme.
Johnathan Merritt [00:32:05] That's right. And they explain like, "We're not looking for books in rhyme." A lot of books these days, they make it through an editor, but then it's ultimately decided by an accountant. And so, the accountant punches in the numbers and says, what can we make from this book? We can only make so many books this year. So, I thought about it. I was on an airplane. I was trying to write it in prose. And I finally said, "This is not how it came to me. This is this is me conforming to someone else."
Annie Jones [00:32:37] And which is the opposite message of the book.
Johnathan Merritt [00:32:39] It is. And I will tell you, you're exactly right. It was like betraying the core idea of the story to conform. And so, I wrote the publishers who were asking this question. I wrote them back and said, "I'm so sorry. This is not how it came to me. And it needs to stay the way that it is. It needs to be published in rhyme." And one of the publishers who was an in-print of one of the big five publishers, wrote me back and said, "That's okay. We'll take it in rhyme." And I was like, wait, excuse me, what? I mean, they wrote my agent and he was like, wait, but what? I thought you said... And they were like, no, no, no, we like the book. We would have liked it in prose. We'll take it in rhyme. And they offered me a contract. It was an amazing contract. And so that's who it's with. It's with Running Press Kids, and they have been a delight to work with.
Annie Jones [00:33:32] I love that you advocated for yourself expecting perhaps a no because it felt like they'd already maybe kind of sort of said no, or at least said, "Oh, can you do this?" And I think that's really wonderful. Sticking by your guns and being true to the story you had been given, you have this great partnership now. One of the questions I'm sure-- and I think I know the answer to this, but I don't know if our listeners will or not. So, when you write a children's book, how do you become aware of the illustrations? Do you get to help pick the illustrator? Do you partner with the illustrator? Because the book's illustrations are fantastic.
Johnathan Merritt [00:34:14] Yeah. Oh my gosh, amazing.
Annie Jones [00:34:17] Especially in a kid's picture book, that can make or break you. And so how did you get paired up with Joanna?
Johnathan Merritt [00:34:23] So Joanna Carillo is absolutely amazing. She was attached to one of the other projects that I worked on with HarperCollins. It was a book called my, My Love God Is Everywhere, and I represented that project. And so, this is the thing most people don't know. You only sell the words; you don't sell the illustrations. And, in fact, from an agent standpoint, if you come to me with illustrations or even with an illustrator attached, that's bad news for me because you're giving the publisher two reasons to say no to you instead of one. So, they may go, "Love the words, hate the pictures. It's a no." So, you just sell the words. And then once that's signed, the publisher then goes out and they kind of get your feedback. It's almost like cover design for a lot of authors. Like you have some feedback about what you like, and then they give you some choices, and then you work within the choices they give you because you're choosing together.
[00:35:25] So a lot of times, particularly if you're a first-time children's author, they will want a well-known illustrator to balance you out a little bit. Well, I didn't know any of this. I'm learning all of this for the first time when I'm doing it. So, I came with Joanna and I said, "I really want her. She's absolutely amazing. We've talked about this book. She has a vision." And they said, "Well, we'll interview a bunch of people, but we'll include Joanna." And I was like, okay. And this is typically what happens. Then you get assigned an illustrator and that's the way it goes. They happened to pick Joanna, so I got the one that I wanted, which was amazing. But you can give suggestions for illustrations, but there's a division of labor. So, I report up to the editor and she reports up to the designer and only the designer and the editor interface.
Annie Jones [00:36:20] Yeah. That is like cover design. Like, I'm not talking to a designer. The editor is doing it on my behalf I assume.
Johnathan Merritt [00:36:26] Yeah, that's right. And so, you can then give feedback. It was like I remember when I was taking this course from Julia Donaldson where she wrote a book called Room on the Broom, I think. You know this book?
Annie Jones [00:36:42] Yes, it's so delightful.
Johnathan Merritt [00:36:43] And she was saying when she got the illustrations back, she said this witch was not at all what she had imagined. But the children's book is actually kind of the product of this love affair between word and picture. And they're an artist too, so they're not just like a designer for hire at your behest. And so, she was like, you could suggest something, but this was the image that came to the artist. And so, there's a lot in this book that I suggested that she included. And I could tell you all these little Easter eggs. And there were a lot that I went, oh, that was a really interesting choice.
Annie Jones [00:37:24] I did want to know because you're a Georgia Bulldogs fan, right?
Johnathan Merritt [00:37:27] Yes.
Annie Jones [00:37:28] So there's a page in the book where they're like at a sporting event. They're at a football game and they're all in red. And I was like, was that intentional? Was that you?
Johnathan Merritt [00:37:36] It was intentional. Yes, I got the comp back for that one, and it was another color. And I said, "I know this is a really easy switch. Could they be wearing red jerseys because my team is red jerseys." And so, when it came back in the next round it had red jerseys.
Annie Jones [00:37:51] That's really fun.
Johnathan Merritt [00:37:52] There's also the same-- they go to the library. And I was able to speak into some of the book titles. If you kind of peek, you'll see the book title. So, he's reading Oscar Wilde, which is sort of apropos. And then Henry, the young boy, the protagonist, is reading Matilda by Roald Dahl. And that was my favorite book as a child about this misunderstood child who feels like maybe they were born in the wrong family and into a family that doesn't recognize just how special they are. But there is somebody who does recognize how special they are. Miss Honey, in this character. And it's sort of analogous to The Guncle as well. So, what I wanted to do was kind of show that in every way this child was coming to understand the main idea of this book.
Annie Jones [00:38:45] Okay, so speaking of the main idea of the book, I'm sure it is in your mind because I think it's in every writer and author's mind, like, who is going to read this? Who is this book for? And so, who do you hope reads this book? The book has been out for a few days at this point. I think you posted it Instagram, and it was really sweet, somebody reading to their kid. Are you starting to see kids pick up this book? And how does that make you feel? Who did you write it for?
Johnathan Merritt [00:39:11] Well, I'll give you the straight answer and then I'll give you the weird answer. The straight answer is that the most obvious market for this is that if you're a Guncle, buy this for your nephews and nieces and read it to them. That's great. That functions kind of as a gift book. Also, if you're a parent who wants to introduce your children to a diverse range of characters, that's great. I don't explain in the book what a Guncle is, and that's intentional because it creates space for parents to have conversations with their children in the ways that makes sense for them, in a way they choose. But the story is really not about the Guncle. It's about Henry.
Annie Jones [00:39:52] Right. It's about Henry.
Johnathan Merritt [00:39:53] It's a delightful tale. And not everybody's going to be a Guncle, but everybody is going to be a mentor or wise guide to the children in their lives if they so choose. And that's really what this is about. So that's the kind of straight answer. These are kind of the overlapping audiences. If you love a great story with a positive message. If you want to introduce your kids to a wide range of characters, that's great, and help them to embrace their difference as their own uniqueness. Or if you're a guncle or have a guncle or had guncle. A lot of people are buying it and they'll say, "I want to tell the story of this guy in my life who's no longer with us when I was a kid. So, I'm reading this to my child and then telling them about this character in my life." But the other one is so much of life is us grown-ups reminding ourselves of the things that we want to forget. And I wrote this book for children of all ages, and I've had so many people who have said, "I bought this book, and we're doing it as a one-week book club.".
[00:41:03] It's a little longer than a traditional children's book. Traditional children's books are around 500 words or so. A children's picture book. This one runs a little over 700 words, so it's a little bit longer. And so, it's almost like an essay. And I've had a lot of people say, "We're going to buy this for our book club, and we're going to do it as a one-week book club in between two other offerings." And so, I think it's actually a really wonderful book for adults who need to recover some whimsy to reconnect with their inner child. In many ways, yes, I'm the guncle. That's obvious. In many other ways, I'm Henry. I don't imagine his sexual orientation or anything. He's different because his socks don't match and he loves doing math homework instead of playing on a smartphone. But it sort of is kind of present me, time warping back to past me and looking that child in the eyes and telling him what he needed to hear in that moment. And I think it will function that way for a lot of grownups.
Annie Jones [00:42:02] Yeah, that's really sweet. Because like I said, I read it and I thought, yeah, Jordan and I (I hope) come alongside our friends and love their kids and love them well. And then I also think inside all of us is a kid that didn't quite fit. And so, the book I think is for grown-ups who maybe didn't quite fit as kids. So, when we have guests on From the Front Porch, when we have visiting authors, I typically ask just some quick lightning round questions. These are supposed to be like your guttural responses. So, we're going to do those and then we'll let you go. What is a classic book you've never read but you wish you had?
Johnathan Merritt [00:42:44] Well, I'll say probably-- I read growing up George Orwell's Animal Farm, but I didn't read 1984. And it's apparently so apropos these days.
Annie Jones [00:43:00] Yeah. Apparently, we're living it.
Johnathan Merritt [00:43:00] Yeah. So, in a world of book bans and soft authoritarianism-- not so soft-- it's really apropos. And so, there's so many references these days in the world that I'm in, like cultural commentary.
Annie Jones [00:43:18] Yeah.
Johnathan Merritt [00:43:18] There's so many references to 1984, and it's sort of lost on me. So, it's been added to my list. It's one that I'm definitely going to go back and read this year.
Annie Jones [00:43:27] That's a good answer. What podcasts do you listen to and love?
Johnathan Merritt [00:43:31] Oh, my gosh. Well, I will tell you I don't listen to a ton of podcasts because I'm an audiobook fanatic.
Annie Jones [00:43:44] Oh, okay. Yeah.
Johnathan Merritt [00:43:46] Whenever I'm going to listen, I'm just listening to audiobooks. I have listened to your podcast, which I love, of course.
Annie Jones [00:43:53] Thanks!
[00:43:53] And then there's another one that I really love that's put out by the CAC, which I'm not Catholic but is like a Catholic contemplative community. And it's called Turning to the Mystics. I don't know if you've heard of this.
Annie Jones [00:44:05] I've not, but I'm writing it down.
Johnathan Merritt [00:44:06] It's James Finly who's this sort of scholar and therapist, and each of the seasons you spend with a mystic.
Annie Jones [00:44:14] Okay.
Johnathan Merritt [00:44:15] The first season it's Thomas Merton or Meister Eckhart or Teresa of Avila. A lot of medieval mystics. And you dive into their works and their books and kind of get to know them. I think it's just such a fascinating one, and the guy's got a great voice. You can listen to it when you're going to sleep as well.
Annie Jones [00:44:38] That's a great tip. I know you live in New York. I know you don't live in the South anymore, but I do think you were raised or spent some time in the South. What is your favorite part about life in the South?
Johnathan Merritt [00:44:49] Well, is there another answer other than food?
Annie Jones [00:44:53] Food is a very popular answer.
Johnathan Merritt [00:44:55] I will tell you, growing up, we'd go to my grandmother's house. She's passed now. But every morning she would make biscuits from scratch. We would have biscuits, patty sausage. Whatever was left over would be left under a tea towel with a big block of cheese. And then she'd make another round of homemade biscuits and gravy for dinner. Whatever we were having. We had the best collard greens. I mean, we really know how to ruin a vegetable. You know what I mean?
Annie Jones [00:45:29] I do.
Johnathan Merritt [00:45:30] Pile up with a lot of fat [crosstalk]. I really love southern food, and it's so hard to get here. I mean, you can get polenta, but not really great. It's kind of close. So other than that, I would say the hospitality. It really is special. Hospitality is great.
Annie Jones [00:45:49] I always love asking this question because the answer-- so a lot of people do mention food, but my favorite answer somebody gave once was, he said, "Oh, I love the two-finger wave." And I was like, oh, right! Like when you're driving down the street, somebody, like, sticks up their hand and just like, hi, good to see. And I thought that's so specific. I did not realize it's specific to the South. But yeah.
Johnathan Merritt [00:46:10] That's actually a great answer.
Annie Jones [00:46:12] Good answer, yeah.
Johnathan Merritt [00:46:13] Good answer. The difference is unlike the food, if you live without the two-finger wave it's not going to kill you. But the food, if I'm eating this food, it's going to kill me. I can give you a two finger wave all day long and you won't gain a pound. So maybe, actually, that is a better answer. There's no downside to that one.
Annie Jones [00:46:31] That's right. There's no negative. Okay, where can people follow you or learn more about your work and your book?
Johnathan Merritt [00:46:39] Well, you can totally go to my website and sign up for my newsletter, jonathanmerritt.com. The social media network that's giving me life right now-- I love that you joined TikTok-- is Instagram. So, I love Instagram. Jonathan Merritt, Jonathan underscore Merritt if you search by the handle on Instagram. So, people can go there. And of course, listen, if you're out there, you believe you have a book inside you or you're an author who's looking for a literary agent, a new literary agent, you can always go to the agency website christopherferebee, F-e-r-e-b-e-e, dot com.
Annie Jones [00:47:15] Great. We'll put all of that in the show notes as well. Jonathan, thank you so much. I have loved learning about this process. You have taught me a whole lot in the last-- what has it been, six months, five months? And so, anyway, I'm grateful to get to share now some of those lessons with our podcast listeners. So, thank you for coming on the show.
Johnathan Merritt [00:47:34] It's been a gift. Thank you so much for having me on.
Annie Jones [00:47:37] This week I'm listening to Devil Is Fine by John Vercher. Jonathan, what are you reading this week?
Johnathan Merritt [00:47:44] Other than the question that you just asked me, it was definitely going to be Emily P. Freeman's new book, How to Walk Into a Room. Great book.
[00:47:53] Annie Jones: From the Front Porch is a weekly podcast production of The Bookshelf, an independent bookstore in Thomasville, Georgia. You can follow The Bookshelf’s daily happenings on Instagram at @bookshelftville, and all the books from today’s episode can be purchased online through our store website: bookshelfthomasville.com A full transcript of today’s episode can be found at:
Special thanks to Studio D Podcast Production for production of From the Front Porch and for our theme music, which sets the perfect warm and friendly tone for our Thursday conversations.
Our Executive Producers of today’s episode are…
Cammy Tidwell, Linda Lee Drozt, Martha, Stephanie Dean, Ashley Ferrell, Jennifer Bannerton
Executive Producers (Read Their Own Names): Nicole Marsee, Wendi Jenkins, Susan Hulings Annie Jones: If you’d like to support From the Front Porch, please leave a review on Apple Podcasts. Your input helps us make the show even better and reach new listeners. All you have to do is open up the Podcast App on your phone, look for From the Front Porch, scroll down until you see ‘Write a Review’ and tell us what you think. Or, if you’re so inclined, support us over on Patreon, where we have 3 levels of support - Front Porch Friends, Book Club Companions, and Bookshelf Benefactors. Each level has an amazing number of benefits like bonus content, access to live events, discounts, and giveaways. Just go to: patreon.com/fromthefrontporch We’re so grateful for you, and we look forward to meeting back here next week.